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Cont: Brilliant Light Power Going To Market - Free Energy Generator Part 3

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According to Shaubach of Thermacore, their best cell had an input of 5 watts of electrical power (presumably 5 watts averaged over time given it was apparently pulsed), and 41 watts of heat output, and it ran for a year. Did it run for a year with that power yield? Don't know but tend to doubt it.

The paper that would report this cell is here:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.13182/FST94-A30239

For fun, a picture of Mills, Good and Shaubach who authored the paper in Fusion Technology is here:

http://www.ans.org/pubs/journals/download/a_30233

Right. That's what you said in the first place. Why, then, when asked why this couldn't be commercialised, did you say that their best cell had an output with an excess of 33W from an input of 107W? And why couldn't their actual best cell be commercialised?
 
No and No.

In your world, watts is a unit of heat?

The "losses to the environment" for an electric heater are almost entirely ... heat.

That's right. And much of the heater energy never makes it to the fluid inside the vessel. The energy required from within the vessel to raise the temperature would be less than the energy required from outside.

It is meaningless to "measure" energy of the reaction in terms of input power to the external heater.

...
The paper was intended to be brief and convey a very significant result worthy of further exploration.

No, the paper was intended to sucker investors and other true believers.
 
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Embarrassingly I had only read the first paragraph and did not realize that Thermacore used a much more simple and direct method to measure excess heat than I assumed. I had thought the heater was only used to heat the solution when in fact it was also used to create a heat calibration curve for the solutions.

First it is not the "calibration curve for the solutions" but of the entire unit as a system. As that is what is losing the heat and resulting in the equilibrium temperatures obtained for a given input power.

How did you think they heated the unit for that calibration data?

Also what they show is not a curve, as noted before, or even data of such a curve, but apparently just two data points from which they extrapolate, linearly. Again this depends on the unit as a whole which includes the insulating material. A look at the spec sheet for the stated insulation may show a greater dependence on the applied temperature. Unfortunately they only give a general product name and not a specific item name.

You mean specifically different thermal properties upon the addition of high pressure H2 gas to nickel tubes through which diffused very small amounts of hydrogen to the sodium carbonate solution. Yes possibly H2 gas dissolved in the control sodium carbonate solution raised its specific heat a small amount, so it could retain more heat, thereby releasing less heat, causing a small temperature rise.

Nope I mean "specifically different thermal properties" of the units as a whole. A separate duplicate unit was created for the sodium solution run.

Please, read more and assume less.



Agree with the equilibrium process. The differential heat loss of the potassium carbonate solution vs the sodium carbonate solution is already controlled for by the heater calibration. The magic happens when relatively small amounts of pressurized hydrogen gas is added inside the thin nickel tubing.

I'm glad you agree with well established thermodynamics.

Nope, differences in the temperature profiles of the two units are obvious right at the start and long before the hydrogen is pressurized. In fact during the time leading up to that pressurization the gas coil is noted to be open to the atmosphere.

Again, please, read more and assume less.


While the temperature profile drops significantly for the potassium unit when the pressure is released. It remains relatively stable at an elevated temperature for sometime after. Indicating a potential change in thermodynamic properties of the unit.


One difference is that there is no voltage, unless you hypothesize a voltage is formed between the inside of the nickel tube and the outside. And then you would have to ultimately deduce a conventional chemical process involving hydrogen, hydroxides, nickel and sodium or potassium, ultimately showing enough low energy product to account for the large energy release. It's been tried, but be my guest.

Actually nickel was regularly used as a hot cathode in vacuum tubes. Heat it up and it tends to shed electrons. Give it a source of additional electrons and it will just keep shedding. Polarization would tend to be between where the nickel gets heated most (sheds more electrons) and where it is cooled the most. So between areas in direct contact or closest vicinity to the heater but not in contact with the solution and areas in contact with the solution but not direct contact or closest vicinity to the heater.

The similarity actually struck me as I was putting some NiMH into a charger. The charging process stores hydrogen ions back into the matrix of the negative electrode. By just feeding hydrogen ions the battery would not need a recharge. Now part of what struck me as the similarities was my miss recalling the outer pressure vessel of the experimental unit as being stainless steel. However, it is in fact nickle, which not only means that it will also shed electrons when heated but will also become infused with hydrogen.

Upon entering the nickel of the coil tubing the hydrogen atoms shed their electrons becoming hydrogen ions. Normally those ions would gain electrons back from the metal on the other surface and recombine to diatomic hydrogen. However, if the tubing is polarized (has an electron deficiency) that may not be the case. Similar to the NiMH battery the ions could then combined with hydroxide ions to form water. Meanwhile water near the electrons freed from the nickle surface of the pressure vessel can combine with nickel oxyhydroxide to form Nickle hydroxide and a hydroxide ion. Electrons would migrate from the coil tubing where gained from the hydrogen infusion to the pressure vessel cathode area(s). The actually energy would come from the maintaining of pressure in the coil tubing.

As this process would depend upon the polarization obtained and any electrical connections between the tubing and the vessel how much energy is or could be transferred would vary from case to case, as those aspects are specifically not controlled or accounted for in the experimental description.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_battery

It's no one's responsibility but their's to explain the results and they barely even try. The explanation they do propose, that it is consistent with Mill's theory, is a poor assumption at best. Given that said theory requires all three ionization states of potassium for the numerology of being an integer multiple of 27.2 eV (if I recall correctly). Potassium in the solution would tend to be either the potassium cation or potassium hydroxide. A quick back of the envelope calculation (with all three potassium ionization energies) puts the number of reactions required at about 9.5 E 5 reaction per second. Seeing as the authors didn't even do that nor estimate potassium ion, atom and compound populations of the solution. It is interesting that you evidently seem to expect more from others than these authors.
 
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That's right. And much of the heater energy never makes it to the fluid inside the vessel. The energy required from within the vessel to raise the temperature would be less than the energy required from outside.

It is meaningless to "measure" energy of the reaction in terms of input power to the external heater.

Excellent point, jsfisher, and something I had missed. Combined with their uncurved curve, really makes their testing credibility nill.
 
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In your world, watts is a unit of heat?

Of course not and neither Thermacore nor myself implied they were.

That's right. And much of the heater energy never makes it to the fluid inside the vessel. The energy required from within the vessel to raise the temperature would be less than the energy required from outside.

It is meaningless to "measure" energy of the reaction in terms of input power to the external heater.

Well this is a good point. Heating the solution within would have been more efficient than heating the solution from without. How much more so is the question. Perhaps (say) 50 watts of power from without raises the solution temperature the same as 30 watts of power from within. But you greatly exaggerate to say the power measurement it is therefore "meaningless", since there is a correlation. What becomes questionable is the amount of power generated by the magical hydrogen reaction in absolute terms, not in relative terms.

No, the paper was intended to sucker investors and other true believers.
Your bias and trust issues are showing. There are indeed conspiracies in this world but this is not one of them.
 
Right. That's what you said in the first place. Why, then, when asked why this couldn't be commercialised, did you say that their best cell had an output with an excess of 33W from an input of 107W? And why couldn't their actual best cell be commercialised?

Different kind of cell. Why couldn't the electrolytic cell with the higher yield be commercialized? I don't know the details of that cell, but Thermacore shied away from the electrolytic approach, perhaps in part for safety reasons. Perhaps also they later realized they had overestimated COP in the more difficult pulsed power electrolytic cell. Don't know.
 
The much more thorough experiment funded by the Air Force did calculations for the energy contributed by maintaining pressure in the coil tubing, and it was insignificant compared to the energy release. See page 33 of
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GernertNnascenthyd.pdf

From that page...


The energy generated from the compression of hydrogen is calculated in
Appendix C. The results show that about 521 joules of heat are released at the time compression occurs. This 521 joules of heat are insignificant compared to the 4.5 x 10' joules of excess energy measured during the three week duration of the 25 watt experiment.

Simply a calculation of the energy of the initial compression of the hydrogen into the tubing. Not a measure, calculation, monitoring or anything at all having to do with maintaining that pressure over time.

ETA: See appendix C for the singular "at the time hydrogen gas is released into the coil" calculation.

Again, read more, assume less and do, please, try harder.
 
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How about you describe for us what was involved in the experimental apparatus that produced 35W of excess heat for a year, and then tell us specifically how that would be so incredibly useful in the real world.

In your world, watts is a unit of heat?....


.

Of course not and neither Thermacore nor myself implied they were.

Something here seems a little out of place. I wonder what it could be?
 
Of course not and neither Thermacore nor myself implied they were.

...excess heat...watts. Yes, both you and Thermacore did.

Well this is a good point. Heating the solution within would have been more efficient than heating the solution from without. How much more so is the question. Perhaps (say) 50 watts of power from without raises the solution temperature the same as 30 watts of power from within. But you greatly exaggerate to say the power measurement it is therefore "meaningless", since there is a correlation. What becomes questionable is the amount of power generated by the magical hydrogen reaction in absolute terms, not in relative terms.

What becomes questionable is the competence of the experimenters at Thermacore. And, yes, the "excess heat" measure is meaningless as presented by Thermacore. Your ex post facto attempts to make it a proxy doesn't change that.

Your bias and trust issues are showing. There are indeed conspiracies in this world but this is not one of them.

I think that qualifies as classic projection. We have a collection of examples where Thermacore, according to its own description, conducted its experiments in an incompetent manner. You crank up the excuse generator and assert as fact whatever what-if comes to your fertile imagination. I call it what it is.
 
Well this is a good point. Heating the solution within would have been more efficient than heating the solution from without. How much more so is the question. Perhaps (say) 50 watts of power from without raises the solution temperature the same as 30 watts of power from within. But you greatly exaggerate to say the power measurement it is therefore "meaningless", since there is a correlation. What becomes questionable is the amount of power generated by the magical hydrogen reaction in absolute terms, not in relative terms.

Your assertion of "the question" being the actual temperature rise to power generated relation and "How much more so" shows that relation is indeed "relative" even just in your own terms.


Alternatively we can just take your latter "in absolute terms, not in relative terms" just at face value meaning the relative relation to the external heater energy input is indeed "meaningless".

Either way you slice it you do need to, please, try harder.
 
From that page...

Simply a calculation of the energy of the initial compression of the hydrogen into the tubing. Not a measure, calculation, monitoring or anything at all having to do with maintaining that pressure over time.

ETA: See appendix C for the singular "at the time the hydrogen was released into the coil" calculation.

Again, read more, assume less and do, please, try harder.

It was the work done to one time compress the gas and attain that pressure*volume energy value. That's all that is needed. Simply because it was contained at high pressure in the nickel tubing for 21 days doesn't mean that additional work was done (energy expended) over that time to maintain pressure. It wasn't.
 
Something here seems a little out of place. I wonder what it could be?

Well it is a fair assumption that scientifically literate people here know the context of what is meant by the admitted lazy term 'watts of heat' ; the continuous power required to keep the heat (energy) content of the solution the same, ie, at thermal equilibrium.
 
It was the work done to one time compress the gas and attain that pressure*volume energy value. That's all that is needed. Simply because it was contained at high pressure in the nickel tubing for 21 days doesn't mean that additional work was done (energy expended) over that time to maintain pressure. It wasn't.


From page 18.

The relationship of hydrogen pressure and temperature to the flow of atomic hydrogen through the tubing wall is expressed by:



From page 20

Calculations, documented in Appendix A, show that for a constant hydrogen pressure of 1100 psig, the volumetric flow of hydrogen diffusing through the nickel tubing is approximately 0.05 cc's/sec at 200°C and 0.8 cc's/sec at 300°C.

On page 11 the picture of the apparatus shows a pressure gauge on the hydrogen inlet, while it doesn't appear to me to be a pressure control gauge "a constant hydrogen pressure of 1100 psig" is explicit in the documentation and "Calculations, documented in Appendix A". Also there appears to be no cutoff valve to retain some pressure if introduced once and just allowed to drift. Reporting of test condition data shows pressure is altered for different test runs indicating pressure control not shown or described in the documentation.

Again, please, read more and assume less.
 
Well it is a fair assumption that scientifically literate people here know the context of what is meant by the admitted lazy term 'watts of heat' ; the continuous power required to keep the heat (energy) content of the solution the same, ie, at thermal equilibrium.

The "scientifically literate people here" also know that when the temperature is rising or falling it ain't at "thermal equilibrium". In other words "heat (energy) content of the solution" is not the same.
 
I invite you....
A irrelevant invitation when it is up to the authors of a paper to cover the obvious bases. That makes "no conventional explanation could be found" into a lie because they did not cover the conventional explanation of exothermic chemical reactions.
Where is their reference that shows hot, pressurized hydrogen cannot have exothermic chemical reactions with potassium carbonate?

A lie of "tons of progress" when you give no evidence of any progress by Thermacore past 1995.

A lie of "tons of progress" in Mills' context because he has totally ignored this reaction for maybe 20 years :eye-poppi!

A lie of "tons of progress" in a more general Mills' context because he has still not produced a working generator after almost 30 years!

A version of the Galileo gambit . A guess of groundbreaking papers being published in 'lesser' journals, does not make crank papers in 'lesser', inappropriate journals groundbreaking :eye-poppi!

A delusion that publishing obviously bad papers is to any journal's credit :jaw-dropp.

Physics Review Letters A rejected the paper. Mills shopped the paper around until he found a journal gullible (or incompetent) enough to publish it.
*Mills, R.L.; (2000). "Novel Hydrogen Compounds from a Potassium Carbonate Electrolytic Cell". Fusion Technology 37 (2): 157–182.

*Mills, R.L.; Good, W.; (1995). "Fractional Quantum Energy Levels of Hydrogen". Fusion Technology 28 (4): 1697–1719.

*Mills, R.L.; Good, W.; Shaubach, R. (1994). "Dihydrino Molecule Identification". Fusion Technology 25 (103).

*Mills, R.L.; Kneizys,S. (1991). "Excess heat production by the electrolysis of an aqueous potassium carbonate electrolyte and the implications for cold fusion". Fusion Technology 20 (65).
 
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Well it is a fair assumption that scientifically literate people here know the context of what is meant by the admitted lazy term 'watts of heat' ; the continuous power required to keep the heat (energy) content of the solution the same, ie, at thermal equilibrium.
Of course I know, as I stated before, that the terms can be interchanged. What I am pointing out, and what requires no scientific literacy at all, but only a modicum of honesty, is that when you denied that you had stated that watts are a unit of heat you were, at the very least, recalling inaccurately.
 
Well of course the power would have to be disconnected first before rearranging the circuit so that the multimeter could directly measure current. Not a big deal if this is done pre experiment to get a feel for what is going on.



Look at the 1994 paper where they continually measured the power by just continually monitoring the voltage and using the V^2/R for power calculation, making the simplistic assumption of constant R. This kind of detail was not mentioned in the previous 7 page paper because it was not intended to be detail oriented.







I'm just offering a possible scenario. And yes, you can assume some things can remain constant for all intents and purposes. Competent scientists do that all the time when they know that the potential error introduced is insignificant compared with other much larger sources of error.







To believe it is more likely a 'fraud' shows you have trust issues. Why not read the more thorough 47 page report from 1994. Was that a 'fraud' as well? Where does that mindset of yours end I wonder. Fascinating.



Dude, YOU’RE the one offering a list of excuses that would constitute fraud.

Your excuses to explain away the problems with the paper flat out accuse them of fraud.

Have you ever thought trough the implications of the excuses you’re making? It would appear not.

YOU ARE ACCUSING THEM OF COMMITTING FRAUD. You are the one who listed off instances of faked results and fudged data needed to make the paper come out the way it did.
 
Different kind of cell. Why couldn't the electrolytic cell with the higher yield be commercialized? I don't know the details of that cell, but Thermacore shied away from the electrolytic approach, perhaps in part for safety reasons. Perhaps also they later realized they had overestimated COP in the more difficult pulsed power electrolytic cell. Don't know.

Okay, so you have no idea. But there's nothing in the experimental set-up that suggests it couldn't be commercialised, and the power it generated definitely means it could have been. The question, then, is why was it not? Definitely a big piece missing from the puzzle, wouldn't you say?
 
Back of the envelope time again. Let's do some math with their numbers. From appendix "C" Gas tubing volume 8.5 in3 or just 139.3 cc (back of my envelope says more like 851.3 cc). Given 0.8 cc per second of hydrogen permeating through the tube (appendix "A"). Time for complete evacuation of tube 139.3/0.8 or about 174.125 seconds. Heck even my 851 cc volume for the tube only gives about 18 minutes.

Of course, as the permeation rate depends on temperature and pressure, reducing the number of molecules in the tube reduces the pressure and thus the permeation rate. In order to maintain the permeation rate over time you have to maintain the pressure in the tube over time.
 
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