Amway- Quit or work until you are dead

[novaphile]

Amazing.

I'm reminded of something that P.T. Barnum is supposed to have said...

(Apparently not much evidence that he said it, but somehow he's associated with it.)

 

[Joecool]

The difference is this:

In a pyramid scheme the people at the bottom give money to the people at the top. Sometimes this is a direct payment, sometimes it's hidden.

In a Multi-level-marketing scheme, the new recruits are told they are to be a sales force to sell product, but really they're recruited to be the market for inspirational/motivational materials, which are produced by their up-line who pockets the profit from the manufacture and sale of those materials. The products they sell are almost immaterial.

Diamonds aren't forever. 2.5 minute video of diamonds who left Amway or just quit Amway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-hogR9V5G8

 

[Joecool]

Here's a gem. Money lost in Amway due to business expenses results in a tax refund (from taxes paid by a job) which the Amway distributor counts as a profit or at least "not a loss" LOL

https://transparencyofadreamer.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/losing-in-amway/

Don’t get me wrong, if you look at cost to run the business vs barely running a 50/150 business you could run at a loss. And a loss is a loss – there’s no beating around the bush about that. Before a tax return, you may not break even if you do not do what is taught. But one of the benefits of running a business is being eligible for legal tax write offs to run said business. If I only got my standard return of 400.00 – 600.00 from just my regular job (its what I got before I was in business), then I would have to agree with the naysayers that it definitely is possible to lose money while doing what is taught. However, my point is that while a tax return cannot considered income, my overall bottom line from incoming funds from running my business overall and at the end of the day / year did NOT put me in the red. That is my point which runs completely counter to word on the internet street. Any funding to pay for running my business on a monthly basis to give me the tax return that I received was worked into my monthly budget so as not to go backwards in my regular finances. That, and the monthly and weekly income Amway paid me went directly towards covering the costs of running my business. So – bottom line = payments to me from running my business in total from Amway Bonus’ / Amway Retail Payout / Legal Business Tax Refund – I didn’t go backwards ultimately even with a “technical” loss.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Here's a gem. Money lost in Amway due to business expenses results in a tax refund (from taxes paid by a job) which the Amway distributor counts as a profit or at least "not a loss" LOL

https://transparencyofadreamer.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/losing-in-amway/

And if you run a business at a loss for too many consecutive years the IRS starts to consider it a hobby and you lose your deductions.

Can you imagine introducing yourself at a party and someone asking what do you do?

Well, I'm an IT guy for BigCorp, but on the side I sell Amway.

That must be a nice little side business.

Oh no, the IRS says I have to cal it a hobby. But who's got time for golf anyway, right?

Sure. So, what about this weather, eh?

 

[Mr Salk]

They exist.
Amway co-founder Rich DeVos (RIP) father of Betsy DeVos (Secretary of ED) was a billionaire.

 

[Joecool]

They exist.
Amway co-founder Rich DeVos (RIP) father of Betsy DeVos (Secretary of ED) was a billionaire.

But they are the co-owners of Amway, not some distributor who built the business and walked away from it to enjoy untold wealth.

I'm fairly sure that the owners of a big MLM can rake in untold wealth even if the vast majority of their distributors fail and lose money.

 

[Mr Salk]

But they are the co-owners of Amway, not some distributor who built the business and walked away from it to enjoy untold wealth.

I'm fairly sure that the owners of a big MLM can rake in untold wealth even if the vast majority of their distributors fail and lose money.

My parents were in Amway in the 70's/80's. At their level (Direct) they quit with a few hundred dollars per-month residuals. Many of their "up-line" at the time worked full time for Amway and were fairly well off (large homes, nice cars).

Ground floor of a Pyramid is always quite lucrative, although most of their work consisted of seminars and selling motivational-materials like Suze Orman and Tony Robbins. Most of the Diamond-Level and up had enough down-line to retire without working. As long as the down-line keeps chugging..

 

[Joecool]

My parents were in Amway in the 70's/80's. At their level (Direct) they quit with a few hundred dollars per-month residuals. Many of their "up-line" at the time worked full time for Amway and were fairly well off (large homes, nice cars).

Do you know how long they received those residuals? FYI, having large home and nice cars can be had by incurring debt, which many Americans incur when living for the moment. I believe Amway folks are no different.

Ground floor of a Pyramid is always quite lucrative, although most of their work consisted of seminars and selling motivational-materials like Suze Orman and Tony Robbins. Most of the Diamond-Level and up had enough down-line to retire without working. As long as the down-line keeps chugging..

It's sort of a bait and switch scam. Show prospects wealth allegedly made from Amway and then make a significant income by selling the prospects and new distributors training and seminars.

As long as the downline keep chugging. That's an issue because the attrition rate is high in Amway.

Also, Amway sales have tanked. From 11.8 billion in revenue in 2013 to 8.6 billion in 2017. That is a significant decrease.

 

[Mr Salk]

No question Amway sells dreams. It's a culture of Suits and Cadillacs. Nobody wants to buy anything from a Hoodie in a Honda.

 

[Joecool]

No question Amway sells dreams. It's a culture of Suits and Cadillacs. Nobody wants to buy anything from a Hoodie in a Honda.

Agreed. But the suits and cadillacs were a facade. I suspect many of the trappings that diamonds show off in slide shows are not common and in fact, many "average" diamonds probably can't afford a lot of the stuff they put into their recruitment slide shows.

But then again, showing off a middle class lifestyle might not be so appealing.

 

[Mr Salk]

Agreed. But the suits and cadillacs were a facade. I suspect many of the trappings that diamonds show off in slide shows are not common and in fact, many "average" diamonds probably can't afford a lot of the stuff they put into their recruitment slide shows.

But then again, showing off a middle class lifestyle might not be so appealing.

Diamonds are Diamonds. They earn the pin based on size and income of their down-line. The ones I knew in the 80's lived well above middle-class without 2nd jobs.
Granted a significant percentage of upper-level Amway income is derived from selling motivational materials. And clearly attrition-rates may derail retirement plans.

 

[Joecool]

Diamonds are Diamonds. They earn the pin based on size and income of their down-line. The ones I knew in the 80's lived well above middle-class without 2nd jobs.
Granted a significant percentage of upper-level Amway income is derived from selling motivational materials. And clearly attrition-rates may derail retirement plans.

But Amway says once a diamond, always a diamond. In other words, it's possible for a diamond to earn the pin, have their business mostly fall apart, but still earn a nice income from selling motivational products, tools and
seminars.

I believe that diamonds are dependent on the tool income to live "above middle class" and that's why you don't see any of them (I don't know of any) "walk away" from Amway to enjoy a retirement funded by Amway residual income.

Anyone who walks away would likely see their Amway income disappear pretty quickly and I don't believe you receive tool income unless you are participating in the functions and meetings.

 

[xjx388]

Diamonds are Diamonds. They earn the pin based on size and income of their down-line. The ones I knew in the 80's lived well above middle-class without 2nd jobs.

Granted a significant percentage of upper-level Amway income is derived from selling motivational materials. And clearly attrition-rates may derail retirement plans.

That’s the thing. Amway (or any other MLM) is not a sustainable business all on its own. The ones who make money have to make it through putting on seminars. Every MLM company out there that I’ve seen has some form of “training” program. The majority of those upper level people make money from putting those on, not from the MLM itself. As you mention, maybe that rare individual can achieve diamond but sustaining it consistently year over year is quite another thing. But once you have that title, you are a valuable trainer and have real opportunities there.

The other hundreds of thousands of people just keep paying. That podcast I mentioned earlier “The Dream” is doing a really good job illustrating the struggle most people experience z



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[Mr Salk]

But Amway says once a diamond, always a diamond. In other words, it's possible for a diamond to earn the pin, have their business mostly fall apart, but still earn a nice income from selling motivational products, tools and
seminars.

I believe that diamonds are dependent on the tool income to live "above middle class" and that's why you don't see any of them (I don't know of any) "walk away" from Amway to enjoy a retirement funded by Amway residual income.

Anyone who walks away would likely see their Amway income disappear pretty quickly and I don't believe you receive tool income unless you are participating in the functions and meetings.

Just like religion; you can't quit if you want salvation.

 

[Joecool]

That’s the thing. Amway (or any other MLM) is not a sustainable business all on its own. The ones who make money have to make it through putting on seminars. Every MLM company out there that I’ve seen has some form of “training” program. The majority of those upper level people make money from putting those on, not from the MLM itself. As you mention, maybe that rare individual can achieve diamond but sustaining it consistently year over year is quite another thing. But once you have that title, you are a valuable trainer and have real opportunities there.

This is the reason why the "diamonds" have the mantra of never quitting Amway. Anyone who quits becomes a loss of potential income. A hard core dedicated downline is worth quite a bit to the diamond.

As far as I know, there are audios and downloads, books, voicemail, seminars and several monthly meetings which the diamonds profit from. Plus every couple of months, they hold a major seminar/function that might have tens of thousands of people in attendance.

I wonder how the faithful downline would feel if they knew that perhaps their upline diamond had hardly any Amway income but instead was making bank off selling them tools and functions but no longer had a qualified diamond business?

 

[Donal]

Also, Amway sales have tanked. From 11.8 billion in revenue in 2013 to 8.6 billion in 2017. That is a significant decrease.

Herbalife must be jacking their potential "down lines"

 

[Mr Salk]

I'm not up on Amway's current business model for monetizing "tools", but in the 80's they pushed motivational cassette-tapes of successful-distributors recorded at functions (Amway meetings in Hotels).

 

[Joecool]

I'm not up on Amway's current business model for monetizing "tools", but in the 80's they pushed motivational cassette-tapes of successful-distributors recorded at functions (Amway meetings in Hotels).

Tapes were replaced by cds and audio files but the content is mostly the same. (never quit and buy more Amway tools). They still have voicemail (who needs voicemail these days?). They still push certain books and they still have numerous recruitment meetings and functions where some guy will talk about how he was in a rut one day and suddenly Amway dropped in his lap and now he lives a luxurious lifestyle beyond his dreams.

What the Amway big shots don't say is that they achieve much of their "wealth" by selling Amway tools and not so much from Amway necessarily.

 

[xjx388]

Every major MLM company out there these days has a “training” component. They mostly now take the form of live events; from small workshops to large conventions.

The training has very little content related to actually selling the product or building the business. Instead, it’s mostly self-help platitudes, ala Tony Robbins, but with a twist: If you aren’t doing well, it’s not the company or the product; no, there’s something wrong with you.

People aren’t “forced” to go to these things but your “team” will peer-pressure you into going. The small workshops might be $25 while the big conventions can be a lot more plus travel.

When you factor in these events, plus the traditional books, audio, etc, plus all the promotional stuff you have to buy...most people lose money.



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[Joecool]

In my opinion, the MLM products are just there to prevent the whole thing from being a pyramid scheme.

In the meantime, MLM is essentially a bait and switch scam.

Come and get wealthy selling magical MLM products. But the key to success is the foolproof training system. Get plugged in, never miss meetings and you are sure to succeed!

Then when the MLM participant inevitably fails, it's the fault of the individual because he was lazy, or didn't follow instructions just right.