Democrats = Antifa = BS

[Belz...]

Nowadays there's usually a "yes, but...".

If Nazis are bad, opposing Nazis must be good. If the Nazis bring violence, using violence against them must be morally right, yes?

Because the Nazis are violent by definition, there must therefore be moral justification to be violent towards Nazis.

"Violent by definition" sounds dubious to me. Sounds like an excuse to be violent against them at any point you wish to be.

 

[The Big Dog]

Watching your faux pearl clutching over Freedom of Speech is almost as fun as watching your faux pearl clutching over minorities.

Substance free personal attack post: Must mean I am right, again.

Article about the ACLU "faux pearl clutching over Freedom of Speech" as asserted by our latest correspondent

Super post, tho, JoeMorgue.

/hooboy

 

[xjx388]

Is it your argument that "Nazis" have somehow evolved into a more reasonable and tolerance deserving group?

Well, they certainly aren't equivalent in power and influence to their historical namesakes . . .

But you were right the first time. This whole Nazi:GOP as Antifa: Democratic Party is nothing more than an attempt to associate the other tribe with something evil/bad/violent. I would wager that the vast majority of members of both parties abhor Nazis and Antifa in equal measure.

I'd also be willing to bet that there ARE indeed good people who find themselves mixed up with extremist movements and ideologies. This is a timely topic because there's a movie coming out called Best of Enemies about CP Ellis, an "Exalted Cyclops" of the KKK who gets involved in the segregation battle, befriends Ann Atwater (a black civil rights activist) and has a change of heart. I saw a documentary about the real life story and the whole thing moved me to tears.

When are we gonna stop this tribal warfare nonsense? Being humans . . . probably never.

 

[ahhell]

Is it your argument that "Nazis" have somehow evolved into a more reasonable and tolerance deserving group?

No, but comparing American NAZIs of now to that of the German NAZI's of the 1930s and 40s is no less silly as comparing modern antifa to Stalinists of 1930s Russia.

So, what is the goal of antifa? If its just to oppose fascism, I don't see much value in that. If its to actually stop fascists from gaining power or influence, that's worthwhile but I don't see much evidence that antifa's methods being all that effective and seem to be rather counter productive.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, they certainly aren't equivalent in power and influence to their historical namesakes . . .

But you were right the first time. This whole Nazi:GOP as Antifa: Democratic Party is nothing more than an attempt to associate the other tribe with something evil/bad/violent. I would wager that the vast majority of members of both parties abhor Nazis and Antifa in equal measure.

Where are the explicitly antifa democratic party candidates? We have quite a few explicitly nazi republican candidates so to be equivalent there must be some democratic party candidates who are similar.

At least can we all agree that spreading nazi propaganda is a bad thing for a president of the US to do? No matter how fine he thinks the nazis are?

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, but comparing American NAZIs of now to that of the German NAZI's of the 1930s and 40s is no less silly as comparing modern antifa to Stalinists of 1930s Russia.

So, what is the goal of antifa? If its just to oppose fascism, I don't see much value in that. If its to actually stop fascists from gaining power or influence, that's worthwhile but I don't see much evidence that antifa's methods being all that effective and seem to be rather counter productive.

All the ties to nazis didn't hurt Trump ever. As for their methods, well they resulted in arrests of those violent proud boys in NYC that the police were OK with. But the video of their violence gets out and suddenly the police care about violent nazis. Clearly that is not effective and counter productive. Keep the violent nazis on the streets, that is the best solution.

 

[Belz...]

'So to speak' meaning they don't actually shout, they type. Anyone who calls for violence and fascism is the rough equivalent of those who carry it out.

Sorry, I can't agree to that. Thought is not the same as speech, and speech is not the same as physical violence.

They are, but lack of organisation is not a virtue. The only reason they don't organise is that they see order as the domain of fascist authority. They don't want to be controlled, they're free, nobody tells them what to do.

Right, but it's hard to characterise all of antifa, then.

 

[Stankeye]

Does anyone else see it like me?

The vast majority of people voting do not support the Stalinists on the left, or the Nazis on the right. They support the official that is closest to their views.

it seems that the extremist activists on both sides are able to influence people to think that anyone who votes one way or the other is taking their position. The media helps this illusion.

[qimg]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/dgdtox.png[/qimg]

That graph is wrong.

 

[dann]

Supporting extrajudicial violence and vigilantism without due process of law is an extreme position and when you say you support fighting fascists, fascists according to whom exactly?
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/08/he_brought_an_american_flag_to.html

Since you're a Portland atheist, could you tell us what happened to the guy who was allegedly left lying in a pool of blood? At the time, August 20, and the days following the alleged event, I tried to find out more. I was hoping that something would have appeared in the meantime, but I can still find only references to the original article.
For some reason I can't find any photos of the pool of blood he was allegedly lying in. I also don't see any blood on his hands in any of the photos from the street or the video.
Why didn't he appear in an interview or a talk show since Aug. 20? His allegedly fellow Bernie fans should have had plenty of time to contact him, interview him and let him know that they would accompany him to make sure that he wouldn't be harmed at the next demonstration.
Why didn't at least another Portland newspaper or website follow up on the story?!
He allegedly helped out at other left-wing demonstrations, but why hasn't anybody come forward to say that they remember him? Why didn't oregonlive.com follow up on a story that got so much publicity in the conservative media?

I've asked about this before, but nobody seems to know anything:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12404372#post12404372
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12404455#post12404455
Is this a story that one might ask snopes.com to investigate?!

 

[BStrong]

Truth. Antifa hates neo-nazis, They have no love for Democrats. Right-wingers assume that if you are against nazis, you must be for Democrats.

Which is a little unnerving when you think about it.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that some Democrats in some areas (mine and Berkeley specifically) are fellow travelers with the antis.

 

[dann]

I agree. The problem is that in this case, the person who kicked the dog isn't the same person who helped the old lady cross the street.

They both call themselve Antifa. That doesn't make them the same person. Antifa is simply an emblem you put on yourself. You exclaim to the world "I am anti-fascist and believe in direct action".

It doesn't matter. You know that they're all the same.
No, wait! They aren't!

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Nowadays there's usually a "yes, but...".

If Nazis are bad, opposing Nazis must be good. If the Nazis bring violence, using violence against them must be morally right, yes?

Because the Nazis are violent by definition, there must therefore be moral justification to be violent towards Nazis.

Now, about that middle ground. How about we say "Nazis are bad" and end it there with a full stop. We don't go "but... Antifa something something". That makes it look like you're apologizing for Nazis, who, as we've agreed, are bad.

If you glance up at the thread title, you'll see why maybe that is a totally sensible redirect in this context.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I agree, but that doesn't mean that some Democrats in some areas (mine and Berkeley specifically) are fellow travelers with the antis.

I'd say Berkeley are among the last Antifa who would endorse the institutional left, Bay Area Antifa is off. the. chart.

 

[BStrong]

I'd say Berkeley are among the last Antifa who would endorse the institutional left, Bay Area Antifa is off. the. chart.

I have no idea what may be the political leanings of the jury, but there's this:

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/0...ed-berkeley-protest-attack-of-trump-supporter

"March 4, 2017, brought a day of violent political clashes to downtown Berkeley’s Civic Center Park. The event, dubbed the “March on Berkeley” by its pro-Trump organizers, was the first of several large protests in the city in 2017 that would pit pro- and anti-Trump activists against each other. There were verbal altercations and street brawls. And despite efforts by some to keep events peaceful, nearly every rally resulted in violence and arrests. Both sides have blamed the other for provoking the fights.

Wednesday, a trial began in Alameda County Superior Court where jurors have been asked to decide if five self-described “anti-fascist” defendants are guilty of attacking Trump supporter Moshe Daniel Quillinan during his evaluation by Berkeley firefighters for a large cut on his head that ultimately required 10 staples to close, according to testimony last week.

Update, 3:45 p.m. The jury has found all five defendants not guilty of misdemeanor assault, and not guilty of assault causing great bodily injury, also a misdemeanor. About 30 supporters of the defendants were in the courtroom for the reading of the verdicts, which began at about 3:40 p.m. Some cried quietly as the clerk read the decisions for each person. After the reading, there was a brief round of applause before the judge released the jury."

 

[ponderingturtle]

I have no idea what may be the political leanings of the jury, but there's this:

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/0...ed-berkeley-protest-attack-of-trump-supporter

"March 4, 2017, brought a day of violent political clashes to downtown Berkeley’s Civic Center Park. The event, dubbed the “March on Berkeley” by its pro-Trump organizers, was the first of several large protests in the city in 2017 that would pit pro- and anti-Trump activists against each other. There were verbal altercations and street brawls. And despite efforts by some to keep events peaceful, nearly every rally resulted in violence and arrests. Both sides have blamed the other for provoking the fights.

Wednesday, a trial began in Alameda County Superior Court where jurors have been asked to decide if five self-described “anti-fascist” defendants are guilty of attacking Trump supporter Moshe Daniel Quillinan during his evaluation by Berkeley firefighters for a large cut on his head that ultimately required 10 staples to close, according to testimony last week.

Update, 3:45 p.m. The jury has found all five defendants not guilty of misdemeanor assault, and not guilty of assault causing great bodily injury, also a misdemeanor. About 30 supporters of the defendants were in the courtroom for the reading of the verdicts, which began at about 3:40 p.m. Some cried quietly as the clerk read the decisions for each person. After the reading, there was a brief round of applause before the judge released the jury."

Yep and the police were right not to arrest the proud boys at the time here.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proud-boys-arrests-new-york-city-brawl-fight-gavin-mcinnes-2018-10-22/

Odd that they seem to be arresting them now. Those fine upstanding police oriented men clearly are the victims of the antifa.

 

[caveman1917]

Look, this stuff isn't difficult.

1. Liberals/democrats are right-wingers. Just because you (ie Americans) cut off the entire left side of the spectrum with the Red Scares and then managed to delude yourselves into thinking that liberals are the left and conservatives the right doesn't make it so, liberals are moderate right-wingers and conservatives are hard right-wingers.

2. Antifa has nothing to do with the right, neither with the liberals nor with the conservatives. Antifa is made up of left-wingers (socialists, communists, anarchists, etc) who join forces to oppose fascism. Antifa hence does not have a specific political goal outside of fighting fascism, it's just the result of leftists putting their differences aside to cooperate in fighting fascism.

3. The reason Antifa fights fascism is because the left is the primary target of fascists, the camps in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc filled up with leftists long before the fascists moved on to different targets. In other words, because fascists constitute an existential threat to leftists. The fascists don't care what specific type of leftist someone is, hence why leftists go "We have a common existential threat, let's cooperate to fight it" and Antifa is the result of that.

4. Fascists don't give a flying **** about free speech, it's just a way for them to get the liberals to do their bidding. When fascists come together to march it has nothing to do with free speech, it has to do with asserting power and control over the streets. If they are not countered it feeds into their self-esteem and feeling of power and they'll continue to hunt leftists/minorities/homeless/etc in the city after the march.

5. Fascists are really cry-babies. If they do get countered then after the march they go home to cry about it on the internet and the city remains safe from packs of fascists hunting people. That crying and complaints about free speech are simply a way to get the liberals to do their bidding for them.

6. Violence is the only language they understand and it is also the only language they speak. It's not like everything else hasn't been tried on them already. It simply is what it is, hence the saying "If you can't convince a fascist then acquaint his head with the pavement."

7. Antifa does not defend liberal capitalist democracy from fascists, almost all people in Antifa are leftists and hence anti-capitalist. However the unspoken rule in Antifa is that internal political differences are set aside to fight fascism together, and that outside of that groups or individuals just do their own thing. Meaning that, even though Antifa is leftist in the sense that almost all people involved are various shades of leftists, Antifa itself merely exists to fight fascism, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[theprestige]

That's as likely as calling the computer help desk and getting the Amish guy.

Sorry, could you rephrase your claim clearly in terms of the topic we're actually discussing?

 

[dudalb]

I agree, but that doesn't mean that some Democrats in some areas (mine and Berkeley specifically) are fellow travelers with the antis.

I can so testify.

 

[The Shrike]

I think I agree with all of this, but especially the first one:

Look, this stuff isn't difficult.
1. Liberals/democrats are right-wingers. Just because you (ie Americans) cut off the entire left side of the spectrum with the Red Scares and then managed to delude yourselves into thinking that liberals are the left and conservatives the right doesn't make it so, liberals are moderate right-wingers and conservatives are hard right-wingers.

I'm gobsmacked when people label the American Democratic Party as liberal and/or leftist. The Democratic National Committee is, politically, about as leftist as mainstream Republicans were during the Reagan years. Obama is demonized by the right but he was despised as a turncoat by the real left for things like drone strikes, deportation rates of illegal aliens, being way too corporate friendly, needing to "evolve" on gay marriage, etc. There is no major liberal party in the US. That's why Bernie Sanders energized so many people in 2016.

 

[dudalb]

Look, this stuff isn't difficult.

1. Liberals/democrats are right-wingers. Just because you (ie Americans) cut off the entire left side of the spectrum with the Red Scares and then managed to delude yourselves into thinking that liberals are the left and conservatives the right doesn't make it so, liberals are moderate right-wingers and conservatives are hard right-wingers.

2. Antifa has nothing to do with the right, neither with the liberals nor with the conservatives. Antifa is made up of left-wingers (socialists, communists, anarchists, etc) who join forces to oppose fascism. Antifa hence does not have a specific political goal outside of fighting fascism, it's just the result of leftists putting their differences aside to cooperate in fighting fascism.

3. The reason Antifa fights fascism is because the left is the primary target of fascists, the camps in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc filled up with leftists long before the fascists moved on to different targets. In other words, because fascists constitute an existential threat to leftists. The fascists don't care what specific type of leftist someone is, hence why leftists go "We have a common existential threat, let's cooperate to fight it" and Antifa is the result of that.

4. Fascists don't give a flying **** about free speech, it's just a way for them to get the liberals to do their bidding. When fascists come together to march it has nothing to do with free speech, it has to do with asserting power and control over the streets. If they are not countered it feeds into their self-esteem and feeling of power and they'll continue to hunt leftists/minorities/homeless/etc in the city after the march.

5. Fascists are really cry-babies. If they do get countered then after the march they go home to cry about it on the internet and the city remains safe from packs of fascists hunting people. That crying and complaints about free speech are simply a way to get the liberals to do their bidding for them.

6. Violence is the only language they understand and it is also the only language they speak. It's not like everything else hasn't been tried on them already. It simply is what it is, hence the saying "If you can't convince a fascist then acquaint his head with the pavement."

7. Antifa does not defend liberal capitalist democracy from fascists, almost all people in Antifa are leftists and hence anti-capitalist. However the unspoken rule in Antifa is that internal political differences are set aside to fight fascism together, and that outside of that groups or individuals just do their own thing. Meaning that, even though Antifa is leftist in the sense that almost all people involved are various shades of leftists, Antifa itself merely exists to fight fascism, nothing more and nothing less.

And, pray tell, what do you define as a fascist?