The Behavior of UK Police officers.

[Nessie]

The fact is, and you and I both know it, that the people who routinely walk around in religious dress are Muslim females. Forget your dog collars and your habits and your sashes, that is what this poster is referring to.

It depends where you live in Scotland. I am far more likely to see one of the local ministers or one of the Salvation Army in their uniform than I am a Muslim female. I see more turbans than burquas, because I am friendly with a Sikh family and Sikhs own a number of local businesses.

The female Muslim is the best known, due to a general increase in attacks on Muslims and Muslim terrorism.

That does not mean they are the subject of the adverts.

And before you say it, no, I absolutely do not support people attacking anybody, for the way they dress or any other stupid reason.

Don't accuse me of making strawman accusations as part of a strawman accusation.

That is not what this poster is saying. It's effectively putting religious criticism on the wrong side of the law. If you show 'intolerance' for religious dress, or religious thought, then we'll come for you. That's the message. Not, "If you punch a woman in a hijab we'll come for you," which is expected and desired by all right-minded people.



I have no doubt that the Scottish have no time for terrorists, just like the English, but we're not talking about terrorists here, we're talking about what is essentially blasphemy law.

No, we are talking about reducing hate crime and bigotry, a problem Scotland has taken a long time to come to terms with as it had become almost a routine part of life.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm slightly curious to know who the Christian groups are who object to that poster and on what grounds.

Even if we take it for granted that the "religious dress" means women in hijabs, the target of the poster is people who yell abuse at them in public and make their lives a misery. Who looks at that and thinks "They mean us"? Who thinks only Christians do that? Who thinks typical Christians do that?

 

[Nessie]

It's not an exact science - the report is based on an analyst's judgement, but this report (page 18) indicates that that over 80% of incidents are linked to Roman Catholic or Protestant victims. Islam is 17%, which is slightly telling given that Muslims (in 2011 census) make up only 1.4% of the population.

Of course, the religion of the perpatrator is not recorded, as that would be too helpful, but also very problematic I would imagine.

Interesting;

"Roman Catholicism is the religion that was most often the subject of abuse" and it showed a 28% increase 2015-2017, whilst abuse targetting Islam dropped by 16%.

 

[MikeG]

Interesting;

"Roman Catholicism is the religion that was most often the subject of abuse" and it showed a 28% increase 2015-2017, whilst abuse targetting Islam dropped by 16%.

Interesting indeed. I suspect our white supremacists won't see it as quite so interesting. Doesn't fit with the agenda, you know.

 

[baron]

It depends where you live in Scotland. I am far more likely to see one of the local ministers or one of the Salvation Army in their uniform than I am a Muslim female. I see more turbans than burquas, because I am friendly with a Sikh family and Sikhs own a number of local businesses.

The female Muslim is the best known, due to a general increase in attacks on Muslims and Muslim terrorism.

That does not mean they are the subject of the adverts.

Well, we could go round for ever, but I do believe they are the subject of these religious posters.

Don't accuse me of making strawman accusations as part of a strawman accusation.

No, we are talking about reducing hate crime and bigotry, a problem Scotland has taken a long time to come to terms with as it had become almost a routine part of life.

Do you think these posters are an effective way of reducing religiously motivated crime? First, they don't even target crime, they explicitly refer to intolerance and bigotry. And then there's the fact that mocking religion ("your faith" and "end of sermon") is possibly not the best way to get the point across. Combined, of course, with the disgusting bullying, 1984-esque tone of the whole thing.

If you were designing such a poster, would you write those words? They are disgraceful. I know the police didn't write them but they openly support them and permit their logo to be used beside them.

 

[Nessie]

Well, we could go round for ever, but I do believe they are the subject of these religious posters.

I think the recent publicity surrounding the burqa has inspired the comment and helped force action, but in Scotland it is more about taking a stand against Christian bigotry.

Do you think these posters are an effective way of reducing religiously motivated crime? First, they don't even target crime, they explicitly refer to intolerance and bigotry.

The controversial language is similar to an approach previously used in Scotland to tackle domestic violence started about 10 years ago. Step one, publicise how much of a problem there is and make eye catching statements so that people understand what was regarded as situation normal is not not going to be tolerated.

And then there's the fact that mocking religion ("your faith" and "end of sermon") is possibly not the best way to get the point across. Combined, of course, with the disgusting bullying, 1984-esque tone of the whole thing.

If you were designing such a poster, would you write those words? They are disgraceful. I know the police didn't write them but they openly support them and permit their logo to be used beside them.

It is ironic you think the police should be circumspect about what they say and not exercise their freedom of speech to criticise and mock.

 

[zooterkin]

Well, we could go round for ever, but I do believe they are the subject of these religious posters.

Must they be the only subject of the posters?

 

[baron]

I think the recent publicity surrounding the burqa has inspired the comment and helped force action, but in Scotland it is more about taking a stand against Christian bigotry.

The controversial language is similar to an approach previously used in Scotland to tackle domestic violence started about 10 years ago. Step one, publicise how much of a problem there is and make eye catching statements so that people understand what was regarded as situation normal is not not going to be tolerated.

Violence and the threat of violence is not in the same category as making fun of someone's clothes or mocking somebody's religion. Nobody has yet died from being told they look like a postbox, although you'd be forgiven for thinking so.

It is ironic you think the police should be circumspect about what they say and not exercise their freedom of speech to criticise and mock.

You didn't answer my questions, any of them.

I disagree with the message and the tone, but I don't advocate that the person writing the poster should be prosecuted and jailed. How can you not see the difference?

 

[baron]

Must they be the only subject of the posters?

I think they are. Whether they must be or not, I can't say. Christians have never had much protection in law and I find it hard to believe Police Scotland have suddenly decided to rectify that point, or indeed that they woke up one morning and decided to crack down on the ancient rivalry between two groups of Christians.

 

[Nessie]

Violence and the threat of violence is not in the same category as making fun of someone's clothes or mocking somebody's religion. Nobody has yet died from being told they look like a postbox, although you'd be forgiven for thinking so.

Police Scotland will take reports and different between both hate crime and hate incidents;

http://www.scotland.police.uk/keep-safe/advice-for-victims-of-crime/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

Poking fun at religious dress is more likely to be a hate incident, which does not amount to a crime.

The recording is to help identify the issues and how problematic they are, to then look for multi-agency solutions, for example encouraging open days where religions encourage people to come to their place of worship and learn about each other.

You didn't answer my questions, any of them.

I disagree with the message and the tone, but I don't advocate that the person writing the poster should be prosecuted and jailed. How can you not see the difference?

I think the posters are suitably eye catching to drawn attention and I get the message they are putting over. It is a Scotland centric message I get you do not understand.

 

[Nessie]

I think they are. Whether they must be or not, I can't say. Christians have never had much protection in law

Which is Scotland meant in many cases, Roman Catholics were at a disadvantage and prejudiced against by the Protestant majority. That could be Catholics finding it harder to get council houses or certain jobs, as well as abuse and violence.

and I find it hard to believe Police Scotland have suddenly decided to rectify that point, or indeed that they woke up one morning and decided to crack down on the ancient rivalry between two groups of Christians.

The posters are not the first action to tackle bigotry. Tackling bigotry has risen up the agenda over the past 20 years or so. A key event was back in 1989, when Protestant Rangers football club signed their first Roman Catholic footballer, Mo Johnston. The outrage that caused amongst many woke many others up to just how bad the bigotry issue was in Scotland. It has then been taking time to get people to confront the issue.

 

[baron]

Well, my views on the poster aside (and the fact I believe they will actually cause more 'crime', not less), the entire concept of 'hate incidents' and 'hate crime' is authoritarian nonsense. We already have laws to combat assault, harassment and threatening behaviour and all these laws do is to seek to impose control over free speech.

 

[Nessie]

Well, my views on the poster aside (and the fact I believe they will actually cause more 'crime', not less), the entire concept of 'hate incidents' and 'hate crime' is authoritarian nonsense. We already have laws to combat assault, harassment and threatening behaviour and all these laws do is to seek to impose control over free speech.

Please now quote the hate crime law used in Scotland that you think curtails free speech and how it does that.

 

[baron]

Please now quote the hate crime law used in Scotland that you think curtails free speech and how it does that.

I've already discussed this with regards to the English law, which I imagine is the same or, if anything, more lenient. And it's a ridiculous question. You know fine well that mocking Islam will get you arrested, as will teaching your dog to Seig Heil. Whether it's criticising refugees , tweeting that you've asking a Muslim to justify a terror attack or simply insulting the religion of peace, the police are bursting through your door and taking you away.

And to stave off the chants of 'racist!' (LOL! as if), being prosecuted and found guilty of 'hate crime' for insulting British soldiers is equally reprehensible.

 

[Nessie]

I've already discussed this with regards to the English law, which I imagine is the same or, if anything, more lenient.

Criticising a law you cannot even quote....!

And it's a ridiculous question. You know fine well that mocking Islam will get you arrested, as will teaching your dog to Seig Heil. Whether it's criticising refugees , tweeting that you've asking a Muslim to justify a terror attack or simply insulting the religion of peace, the police are bursting through your door and taking you away.

They did more than mock Islam and insult others.

And to stave off the chants of 'racist!' (LOL! as if), being prosecuted and found guilty of 'hate crime' for insulting British soldiers is equally reprehensible.

He did more than insult, "all soldiers should die and go to hell" in that context was grossly offensive.

No wonder you do not wish to discuss the actual law, as you are misrepresenting what the offenders did by playing down just how hateful and offensive they were.

 

[baron]

Criticising a law you cannot even quote....!

I posted the link pages back, and quotes. Of course you read this, so maybe you can explain how the Scottish law differs from the UK law.

They did more than mock Islam and insult others.

Wrong.

He did more than insult, "all soldiers should die and go to hell" in that context was grossly offensive.

Please, let me do the parodies. "Nobody's being arrested for insulting speech!" "What about this guy?" "Oh, oh, well... he was being very insulting!"

No wonder you do not wish to discuss the actual law, as you are misrepresenting what the offenders did by playing down just how hateful and offensive they were.

Hateful and offensive! Oh boo hoo! Let's all cry to the police. Do you know the meaning of 'free speech'? And be careful when replying, I will phone the police immediately if you assault me with your different opinions.

 

[jimbob]

He did more than insult, "all soldiers should die and go to hell" in that context was grossly offensive.

Indeed, the direct nature of the communication aimed at the Muslim woman was threatening.

Prefacing it with, "It's not personal" doesn't change that.

I wonder what would happen if I sent someone a PM here that said?

"Nothing personal, but I **** hate your deepest beliefs and will do all I can in life to defeat your filth"
​

Actually I don't.

ETA:

especially in a series of text messages to this person

 

[baron]

Indeed, the direct nature of the communication aimed at the Muslim woman was threatening.

Prefacing it with, "It's not personal" doesn't change that.

I wonder what would happen if I sent someone a PM here that said?

"Nothing personal, but I **** hate your deepest beliefs and will do all I can in life to defeat your filth"
​

Actually I don't.

I do. What would happen? Would you expect to be arrested? I don't even understand your point. It's not even a personal insult. I see worse on this site ten times a day.

And honestly, this whole 'debate' is excruciating. Can't people see that it's irrelevant whether something is deemed offensive, very offensive or nuclear grade offensive because it is an entirely subjective judgement. Why people advocate for a fascist state where you can be arrested for being insulting is anybody's guess, they must really despise liberal values.

 

[jimbob]

or simply insulting the religion of peace, the police are bursting through your door and taking you away.

I'm not familiar with Informationliberation.com but at least they chose a suitably ******* domain name to warn you that they have a conspiracist mindset.

Still, to give it its due, it supplies sufficient information to undermine it's own spin on the story.

(The one I was referring to in my previous post).

Still, I'm sure they'd be all in favour of calling travellers "pikies".

 

[baron]

I'm not familiar with Informationliberation.com but at least they chose a suitably ******* domain name to warn you that they have a conspiracist mindset.

Still, to give it its due, it supplies sufficient information to undermine it's own spin on the story.

(The one I was referring to in my previous post).

Still, I'm sure they'd be all in favour of calling travellers "pikies".

What in the name of god are you talking about? And what's a ******* pikie?