Well you plucked that nonsense straight out of thin air then. My Beautiful Lauundrette isn't the only place you'll find gay Muslims in Britain.
The Behavior of UK Police officers.
- Thread starter Baylor
- Start date
Well you plucked that nonsense straight out of thin air then. My Beautiful Lauundrette isn't the only place you'll find gay Muslims in Britain.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
Have you ever actually been to the UK?
Well I was being rather sarcastic so I wouldn't read too much into it. The development of rights in all stable democracies is a very complex matter, there is no simple summary that can encompass all of the various factors that go into influencing the ways rights are obtained or removed. Anyone who does seriously propose "it's the whites" or "it's the blacks" or "it's the muslims" or "it's the Christians" as a summary is obviously either being humorous or stupid.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
Straw man is made of straw.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
You've obviously never been in any UK gay clubs.
Nessie
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Baylor ignores Northern Ireland and the Troubles (to be fair, he is probably completely ignorant of what went on there).
If people start to continually riot, shoot at the police, blow up buildings, cars, people, as happened in Northern Ireland, the UK police will arm itself and us far more forceful tactics.
Where the people are no where near as violent as that (the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland now), the police will remain true to the founding principles of policing by consent and use much softer tactics.
The largely Asian and black population areas in England (London, Bradford etc) are not constantly rioting, shooting at the police etc as happened in Northern Ireland. Hence the softer tactics are still being used.
Be rest assured, as proven by the Troubles, if there were major, continual problems with certain population groups in England (or Wales etc), then the more forceful policing tactics would be used.
If people start to continually riot, shoot at the police, blow up buildings, cars, people, as happened in Northern Ireland, the UK police will arm itself and us far more forceful tactics.
Where the people are no where near as violent as that (the whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland now), the police will remain true to the founding principles of policing by consent and use much softer tactics.
The largely Asian and black population areas in England (London, Bradford etc) are not constantly rioting, shooting at the police etc as happened in Northern Ireland. Hence the softer tactics are still being used.
Be rest assured, as proven by the Troubles, if there were major, continual problems with certain population groups in England (or Wales etc), then the more forceful policing tactics would be used.
They'd be more concerned with being called racist, like they did with the many rape gangs.
baron
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I'll take the results of a Gallup poll over your, um, 'experiences' in Morocco.
baron
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Can we stick to the facts? My 'obvious' absence from Morocco and gay clubs doesn't really have a bearing on the topic.
Except, of course, we've moved on from Morocco and are now talking about Britain, where there are many gay Muslims.
baron
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Of course. Anybody who says that progress has been achieved because of the whiteness, or beigeness, of those in power is clearly mad. The key factors are culture, values and vision and it is indisputable that the culture of some immigrant communities is opposed, sometimes markedly so, to modern liberal values. Admitting this is not racist and it is not bigoted, it's a plain fact. And yes, I'm struggling to connect this with 'the behaviour of UK police officers' but nobody else is doing any better.
baron
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I do apologise for talking about Morocco, I should never have brought it up
OK, let me try and explain. Homosexuality itself is not a cultural position, it's a function of biology. The existence of homosexual Muslims has no connection whatsoever with the cultural and religious views of Muslims on this matter. Neither is it of great surprise that homosexuals are in favour of gay rights. Luckily, those gay Muslims in your photo are able to express their sexuality because they live in the progressive, tolerant society of Great Britain. If they tried that in Yemen or Afghanistan or Somalia, they would be murdered.
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Which is not what Darat was arguing. He was arguing against the idea that allowing non-whites into the UK would mean that intolerance would increase; he was pointing out that during the time that tolerance was increasing, so was diversity. I don't believe he was saying there was a causal relationship.
baron
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My reply was probably steeped too much in sarcasm. It's unarguable that diversity has increased at the same time as gay rights have improved. Without a causal link, however, they are just two statistics. Ownership of labradoodles has also increased in that timescale. Cinema attendance has gone down.
I hate the word 'diversity'. The right thinks it's terrible, the left thinks it's great. That makes for poor, polemic debate. Good diversity is good, bad diversity is bad. Unless you are prepared to go more granular then this is about the sum of it.
Nessie
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Northern Ireland was a sectarian, not a racial conflict.
You have ignored and dodged where I proved that when required, the UK police can and will use far more forceful tactics than you thought.
No #$%@
Not in the current year. On the contrary you haven't shown any evidence UK police can stand up to Muslims. I've given video footage of police running from and submitting to Muslims. I've given statements of police apologizing to victims of rape for their cowardice, along with much other evidence.
Here's a description of a YouTube video of a confrontation between UK police and Muslims.
"This happened in Nelson. Notice the police didn't run away like their southern counterparts in 2009."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1LgIylHu0
Wow. Looks like Britons are just happy when cops don't run away from Muslims.
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Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
First you have to present come valid evidence of Muslims doing things that merit standing up to.
No you haven't. You've cherry-picked unidentified snapshots without any context.
I'm not sure how you think that validates your claims, because if anything it proves them false. Iif all you via your fellow travellers can come up with is contrasting two isolated and very different incidents in 2009 (misrepresenting police escorting a demo with a view to keeping it separate from an EDL one) and 2015 (police ignoring gobby bystanders), you haven't got much to go on.
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No, let me try to explain. You said, in terms, "0 percent" of Muslims (by which you meant British muslims) believe homosexuality is immoral. That claim is falsifiable by there being one single British muslim who doesn't take that position. OK? Agreed?
So, I pointed to a group of vociferous and publicly gay British muslims. Assuming they don't characterise themselves as immoral then I have falsified your claim.
Understand now?
This is a fundamental misunderstanding. We don't give a damn about who is causing issues on our streets, and religion is all but dead over here anyway, so no-one thinks in terms of christian or muslim or whatever. We don't care who is causing issues, we simply want the problems stopped.
Her Dark Star
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Ok, had you opened with such an explanation, rather than making a hyperbolic, unsupported claim using sensationalist, poor credibility, cherry picked articles then this thread might have gone a lot better.
If you're suggesting that the police are underfunded and thus facing difficulties in keeping up with an increasing array of challenges, being additionally hampered by changes in political will and social changes? Not only might you have an argument, I might even agree.
However some of your claims, such as no-go zones and all Muslims being exempt from the law, are so utterly incorrect that it completely undermines any related discussion and makes it very difficult to view seriously any genuine points you might have.
There is nothing special about the Muslim communities in Britain, they have the same problems and challenges as policing many other types of communities, whether geographical, religious, ethnic etc. That isn't burying head in the sand, that's reality and there are plenty of other things to deal with too, some of which are of far greater impact.
You are correct that one size fits all policy wouldn't work for policing. Which is why we have lots of different departments and escalating levels of action. There are no places that police won't go, but there are areas that an officer might not go until they have back up. That isn't cowardice, that's sensible. As a copper I didn't go onto a traveler site by myself unless I wanted my head kicked in. But we had liason units that got to know them and worked with us to follow up any enquiries, so it wasn't an issue. When we did need to go there, we could have a riot van sat behind us, making clear what co-operation was desired. If it was really needed, regardless of the subject, we can turn up with a hundred officers, Dog units, Armed Response, Air Reconnaissance etc. We have officers who can deploy in urban assault situations carrying appropriate weapons, we have police snipers, water cannons, armoured vehicles, CS Gas launchers, baton rounds, melee weapons, specialist support vehicles etc. We can work with Military police where appropriate, if a situation really needed it such as one of these supposed 'no-go' zones would be, than we'd have the support of the armed services, including one of the most hardcore special forces units in the world...
It's been done before. It's not because there isn't a will to do what is needed, but because it simply isn't necessary that often.
The characterization of the UK you created by cherrypicking a few sensationalist articles or radical personal opinions, is pure fantasy.
Amongst the various challenges facing the UK police today, Muslim communities, diversity issues and immigrating communities of any other sort, are not especially the problem. Identity Fraud and the rapid increasing of CyberCrime as a whole vastly outstrips the resources needed for tackling religious or racial groups. Hell, the increasing pressure on Traffic and Highways meant they had to create an entirely separate civilian force to help out and it still takes up huge resources in comparison, let alone worrying about Terrorism, Domestic Violence, human trafficking etc.
Policing is a complex set of issues and there are problems for sure. Trying to pin all of them on a single group or even multiple groups, fails to understand the complexity of society, lawmaking, policing or, frankly, reality.
Rotherham was horrific. No one would deny that or deny that serious mistakes were made. The reason you've heard of it however, is because it led to a massive investigation, was widely publicized and followed up on for years. It resulted in changes to policy and procedures, for the police, for councils, for courts. No one buried their head in the sands about it this time. It resulted in a fair number of convictions, some for more than 25+ years each. No idea if any of them were Muslims but they definitely weren't exempt from the law.It was an awful incident, but doesn't support your argument in any way.
It was also quite a while ago, yet the 'Muslim gangs' have spectacularly failed to take over in the meantime.
You are right that different approaches are needed in different countries, for a wide variety of reasons, far more than just questions of 'Diversity'. The obvious comparison is the UK and USA.
Both White Dominated countries, sharing a common language, related histories, high level of cultural exchange etc. But I agree that UK style policing would likely be ineffective, even dangerous, in parts of the USA. Equally the USA approach would be worse than useless in the UK, it would result in a lot of unnecessary deaths, including a lot more dead police. However the appropriateness of each style has nothing to do with the diversity of each country, on the contrary it is very much down to certain characteristics of the dominant culture, which is rather white centric on both sides.
If you want to discuss any of the genuine issues in the UK, or the police, I'd be happy to do so and I'm sure most others would too. Just please dial down the melodramatic rhetoric, and it might be a lot easier to have a genuine discussion.