Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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3point14 said:
I've never seen, nor seen reasonable evidence of a flying elephant. I have looked, I have been to Africa and read the works of many prominent Elephant experts and I have not seen, anywhere, any evidence of flying elephants.
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Right. Let's try it differently:

"I have never seen a black man who is not a criminal."

That's the form of the argument I'm refering to.



Could you answer my daycare example, please?
 
ceptimus said:
We already had a second vote - the general election. The two parties that did well both promised to implement the referendum result. The smaller parties that said they would attempt to reverse the referendum result all did really badly.

There have already been three "people's votes" concerning Brexit:

1. David Cameron won a general election promising in his manifesto to hold an in-out referendum.
2. The referendum itself.
3. The general election last year, when both the parties that did well stood on manifestos promising to implement the referendum result. The SNP and Liberal Democrats stood on manifestos of attempting to reverse the referendum result and both suffered sizeable losses.
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Utter nonsense. As always, the election was fought on multiple issues. The fact that the Tories - the more natural Brexit flag bearers - did worse than the position they were already in speak volumes.
 
Belz... said:
Right. Let's try it differently:

"I have never seen a black man who is not a criminal."
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But I have. I've seen many. I know many. The above is not consistent with reality.


My statements above are. I have never seen a flying elephant - I have never seen a well informed brexiteer.


Just because putting race in a statement makes it racist, that doesn't mean that that form is always racist. That's just without any merit at all.

That's the form of the argument I'm refering to.
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Your comparison is miles out. The two are not equivalent. I really don't know why you'd think they |were.




Could you answer my daycare example, please?
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It's not relevant in the slightest. Both of those ideas may have merit.

Currently the Brexit discussion is one side advocating state funded child care and the other side advocating leaving the kids on the dump unattended all day because it'll be good for their immune system.


I'm afraid I'm finding none of your defences of those in favour of brexit to be in any way even reasonable, let alone convincing.
 
Belz... said:
I'm aware of it, but certainly not to the level of UK residents. Regardless of the campaign, though, you don't know the individual reasons why one might vote to Leave, and to simply assume that they are all idiots is both counter-productive and certainly factually wrong.
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You seem to be ignoring several of us pointing out that the reasons Leave voters themselves have given for voting that way don't stack up. Not even in a positive/negative balance, but in factual reality. It's not even, "I voted Leave because I think X is more important than Y," but more, "I voted Leave because of X," where X is something that is nothing to do with the EU.
 
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Belz... said:
Right. Let's try it differently:

"I have never seen a black man who is not a criminal."

That's the form of the argument I'm refering to.



Could you answer my daycare example, please?
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An immutable quality implying a behavior is not remotely the same as a belief implying informedness.
 
3point14 said:
But I have. I've seen many. I know many. The above is not consistent with reality.
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That just went entirely over your head. That's exactly what I mean! That this person has never seen an upstanding black man means **** all. I'm saying that this is the same with your own claim.

It's not relevant in the slightest. Both of those ideas may have merit.
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That's why it's relevant, actually, but I see that your position is, in fact, quite fixed.
 
Belz... said:
Right. Let's try it differently:

"I have never seen a black man who is not a criminal."

That's the form of the argument I'm refering to.



Could you answer my daycare example, please?
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Hmm... using your logic you have just compared people on this thread racists by using that analogy showing the disdain you have for them. Do you think that's fair?
 
Belz... said:
That just went entirely over your head. That's exactly what I mean! That this person has never seen an upstanding black man means **** all. I'm saying that this is the same with your own claim.
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Indeed. The fact that you have never seen something doesn't mean it isn't out there. The fact you have never seen something AND WHEN ASKED NOBODY CAN GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF ONE EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY EXIST is damn good reason to suspect that no such thing exists.

The claim that no law-abiding black man exists is easily countered by saying for example Barack Obama is one.

The claim that no flying elephant exists would be easily countered by showing us one. It is not countered by simply saying that with so many elephants out there it would be unthinkable that there can't be ONE that flies.

Because as I was trying to show you and you failed to grasps some groups are 100% non-coincidental.

The groups of elephants and flying mammals for example

The groups of rapists and nice people

The groups of Brexiteers and well-informed smart honest non-bigoted people
 
I'll just dip a toe in momentarily to reminisce that much of the pre-referendum online argument I remember decayed to "I and literally everyone I know is voting <whatever>", prompting a mirrored response and futile expressions of disbelief.
 
Well two things are for sure. This thread has not proved that Brexiteers aren't idiots but it has proved that they aren't the only ones.
 
Ha. This thread reminds me of the punch-a-nazi discussions we've had recently. Just like the list of punchables expanded with that discussion, so does the list of stupid people expands here.
 
Belz... said:
That just went entirely over your head. That's exactly what I mean! That this person has never seen an upstanding black man means **** all. I'm saying that this is the same with your own claim.
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No. Utterly rejected. You're indulging in terrible wordplay to try to paint my position other than it is.

I genuinely haven't seen or heard a well informed brexiteer. You seem to fail to acknowledge that - every single time.

No. It's not racist or even prejudiced. It's the result of actually looking and failing to find one. This is not some obscure search for a green and yellow sheep, this is a search for a reasonable pro-brexit position and, at the risk of repeating myself, I haven't found one.



That's why it's relevant, actually, but I see that your position is, in fact, quite fixed.
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No. Not at all. Find me a well informed brexiteer and we can talk again. Until then, I think I really don't think you and I have much left to say to each other. I can't wrap my head around your thoughts that comparative statements are inherently prejudiced. I find that really odd.
 
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3point14 said:
It's the result of actually looking and failing to find one. This is not some obscure search for a green and yellow sheep, this is a search for a reasonable pro-brexit position and, at the risk of repeating myself, I haven't found one.
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Maybe Belz could show us one, as he's so confident they exist?
 
3point14 said:
No. Utterly rejected. You're indulging in terrible wordplay to try to paint my position other than it is.
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Your position is that you haven't met one therefore they don't exist. That's a terrible position, wich is my point.

Ian Osborne said:
Maybe Belz could show us one, as he's so confident they exist?
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I've done so and it's been rejected out of hand.
 
Belz... said:
Your position is that you haven't met one therefore they don't exist. That's a terrible position, wich is my point.
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Yes. Absolutely.

I haven't seen a flying elephant either.

Can you tell me at what point in my search for flying elephants I am allowed to proclaim that they don't exist? Because it seems that the answer is 'never'.

I realise this is an interesting philosophical diversion all about sheep on mountainsides being observed by Scottish engineers and, to a degree, teapots around mars, but it's not relevant here.

I really, really want to know at what point, if ever, I am allowed to proclaim that there are no flying elephants. Can you tell me what information I need to gather to be able to do that? Or do you believe it's imposisble?





I've done so and it's been rejected out of hand.
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Not out of hand, no.
 
Belz... said:
I've done so and it's been rejected out of hand.
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No you really didn't. You posted some hypotheticals which were wrong and then insisted that being demonstrably wrong didn't make them unreasonable. But nothing anyone says to you can change your mind. That despite being removed from the situation by thousands of miles you know better than the people in the midst of it all who have been actively engaged with the debate for years and will suffer the consequences in the coming ones.

And that being the case there really is no point to further discuss this.

You don't like Brexiteers being called stupid. We get it. Tough luck.

Now do you have anything to add on the actual discussions of worth?

Can you make headway of any of the recent proposals from TM or BJ or anyone else?

Can you propose a sensible solution for NI?

Can you explain how we can prevent the NHS, social care, tourism and agriculture being destroyed by new immigration policies?

Can we explain how the financial sector can preserve their passporting rights and how industry can maintain its supply chains?

Can you explain why I should cheer for losing my right to live and work in the EU27 as Brexiteers do?

Because unless someone can this is going to be incredibly bad for everyone.
 
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