Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It's deeper than just a majority in England.

[qimg]http://imagehost.cc/images/2018/10/01/Q30-by-LR-768x685.jpg[/qimg]
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

...which was the point of my question.

Sorry I'm not really following. What was the question and what's this chart showing me in relation to it?

In England, leave voters (39%) were more than twice as likely as remain voters (18%) to describe themselves either as “English not British” or “more English than British”. Remain voters were twice as likely as leavers to see themselves as more British than English.
Two thirds of those who considered themselves more English than British voted to leave; two thirds of those who considered themselves more British than English voted to remain.
In Scotland, remainers (55%) were more likely than leavers (46%) to see themselves as “Scottish not British” or “more Scottish than British”

My point about it being specifically English gammon that caused it is that it was never an issue for anyone but those people, they initiated it, they built it and they voted on it.

Darat gets uppity at any suggestion that the 4 entities within the UK even exist separately so of course he objects to pointing out those simple facts but they still remain simple facts. He also seems to think that I am addressing all English people when I've made it abundantly clear I am talking about the subset of what were formerly known as Little Englanders that have become known as gammon in modern parlance.

Sheer weight of numbers is part of it, but also just that it was a particular mindset that instigated this and forced it through.

The irony is that outside of England it is the Britnats that come closest to sharing this mindset and yet the people with whom they appear to share their allegiance generally would quite happily see them thrown under a bus - see ceptimus earlier post.

It's quite patheticially predicatable that if I see a Scottish Brexiteer on Twitter 9 times out of 10 there will be a picture of Ibrox or a Rangers FC badge on their profile picture.

And there i rightly a lot of anger about Brexit in Scotland because it's not like a General Election where we can vote and get ignored again in 5 years. This is permanent life-changing nonsense which came about because English Tories were upset at losing English voters to English UKIP and English newspapers fomented unhappiness amongst English voters.

Scotland voted by two-thirds to one to stay in the EU after a very close vote to stay in the UK on the back of being told that leaving the UK would risk our EU membership and staying in the UK was the only way to make sure we didn't lose out.

And what does it matter? Not a jot. Because English gammon voted to leave.
And official Government policy has been stated - Scotland is not a partner in the Union, it is part of the Union. In other words, you don't get a say because there aren't enough of you to matter.

Northern Ireland has surely even more of a right to be angry as they have now become a political plaything and are being used as a toy by English politicians who care not a jot for them.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There we go again. 38% of Scots are idiots because they voted in a way I disagree.

38% seems a low estimate for that population. But if you met the average Scots Brexiteer I don't think you would object to the tag.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

Now about those 38% of Scottish residents that voted to leave the EU....

What about them? Months before the referendum, one would have expected that the UK-wide result to look something like this. What's there to explain?

People who felt that they were english and not british went for leave with almost 80%. That's astonishing.

 

[Amazer]

There we go again. 38% of Scots are idiots because they voted in a way I disagree.

Nope... the idiots are those that voted to exit the EU without having any understanding about the likely consequences of that choice. There will be some people that stand to benefit from Breast and those I would not consider idiots. For them I reserve harsher names then idiot.

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[Archie Gemmill Goal]

What about them? Months before the referendum, one would have expected that the UK-wide result to look something like this. What's there to explain?

People who felt that they were english and not british went for leave with almost 80%. That's astonishing.

My theory would be correlation rather than causation.

In general Brexiteers don't like people who aren't like them - the social issues chart shows that quite clearly. They don't like multiculturalism, they don't like feminism, they don't like environmentalism, they don't even like the internet FFS!

They hark back to a better time (which never existed) and fear for the future if we keep allowing all this progressive nonsense (like allowing foreign looking people to live here) to take hold.

They also seem to have an obsession with other people taking what is 'theirs' and the idea that anyone else is getting something that they don't. They don't like funding the EU because they give the money to Hungarian lesbian wind-farmers. They don't like that Scotland chooses to fund free prescriptions for its people.

They are ultra conservative with a small c and mainly with a large C too.

It's the same as the MAGA BS. It seems logical to me that those people would also see Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish as 'others' and therefore choose to tag themselves as English.

There's also an element to it where people of colour, to them, aren't really 'English' they can call themselves British but the 'English' are a people separate to that.

Again in the US there is a bit of a parallel to that. There isn't really an 'American' ethnicity that they can claim so they have invented this mythical idea of a 'white European' race as something that they can claim membership of while excluding and othering everyone else.

 

[Belz...]

Nope... the idiots are those that voted to exit the EU without having any understanding about the likely consequences of that choice.

Uh-huh. Do you think that most of those who voted Remain understood the issues better? I wouldn't bet on it. People in general are poorly informed.

 

[Lothian]

Uh-huh. Do you think that most of those who voted Remain understood the issues better? I wouldn't bet on it. People in general are poorly informed.

There was a correlation between a higher level of education and voting remain. Generally the higher educated understand things better. So I would say yes.

 

[Amazer]

Uh-huh. Do you think that most of those who voted Remain understood the issues better? I wouldn't bet on it. People in general are poorly informed.

Those that voted remain at least had the common sense not to overturn the existing situation... so they might have not understood the issue and poorly informed to boot.... but didn't display the level of idiocy that some/lot of leave voters showed.

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[Belz...]

There was a correlation between a higher level of education and voting remain. Generally the higher educated understand things better. So I would say yes.

I didn't talk about education.

Those that voted remain at least had the common sense not to overturn the existing situation... so they might have not understood the issue and poorly informed to boot.... but didn't display the level of idiocy that some/lot of leave voters showed.

So they're smarter for picking the "right" choice even though they didn't do so in an informed manner? How does that work?

 

[Amazer]

I didn't talk about education.



So they're smarter for picking the "right" choice even though they didn't do so in an informed manner? How does that work?

If the right choice is not walking into a dark room without having an idea what you'll find there... then yes... they are smarter.

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[The Moog]

Uh-huh. Do you think that most of those who voted Remain understood the issues better? I wouldn't bet on it. People in general are poorly informed.

I would say that almost nobody knew the consequences. And most still don't.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I would say that almost nobody knew the consequences. And most still don't.

The voices on social media clamouring to leave immediately with No Deal (while also blaming Remainers and the EU for sabotaging any chance of a deal) suggest to me that many are simply blind to any argument about the damage it will do to the country.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Uh-huh. Do you think that most of those who voted Remain understood the issues better? I wouldn't bet on it. People in general are poorly informed.

If you click through GnaGnaMan's link you will see that those who voted Leave were quite prominently more likely to 'take no interest in politics' so yes I would say they were on average less well informed.

In general I would say that while Remain voters probably did not understand the complexities of the EU much better they were informed enough to realise that it was a complex issue and not as simple as the Leavers were making out.

Of course as we see in the US with MAGA and build the wall etc slogans trump understanding for many.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I didn't talk about education.



So they're smarter for picking the "right" choice even though they didn't do so in an informed manner? How does that work?

Every metric we have says that people who knew less about 'stuff' tended to be more likely to vote Leave. What are we to make of that fact in your opinion?

 

[ceptimus]

And?
As Darat points out, we had a veto.

It's a veto that we couldn't use or were pressured not to use. Another example of EU doublespeak. Why didn't we veto the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties?

Why didn't other EU countries opposed to EU changes use their veto? Some countries actually had referendums and the people voted against the changes - but in the usual EU way, they were asked to vote again because they voted the "wrong way" on their first try.

 

[Belz...]

Every metric we have says that people who knew less about 'stuff' tended to be more likely to vote Leave. What are we to make of that fact in your opinion?

Well, one thing is certain, I wouldn't conclude that they're stupid, which was the claim.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well, one thing is certain, I wouldn't conclude that they're stupid, which was the claim.

That doesn't really answer my question does it?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Why didn't we veto the Maastricht or Lisbon treaties?.

Because we were in favour of them and agreed to them, you absolute [redacted].

 

[Belz...]

That doesn't really answer my question does it?

No but the answer is in the question, isn't it? If you can show that Leave voters are less informed, then what you call them is less informed or misinformed, not stupid.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No but the answer is in the question, isn't it? If you can show that Leave voters are less informed, then what you call them is less informed or misinformed, not stupid.

Confidently doing something risky because you don't understand the risks and are wilfully ignorant is not just 'less informed' it's stupid and reckless. Couple that with ignorantly making declarations of how people who understand things better are wrong or should be ignored.

Stupid: having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense

I'd be interested to know a few examples of what you consider to be legitimate examples of stupid?