Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

[McHrozni]

Pretty much, except that it happened to be the ruling party, trying to claw back their own voters who abandoned them over a single issue and, most strangely of all to me, the Leave vote seems to be quite resilient in opinion polls despite almost everyone thinking either that the whole thing is a shambles or at least that they'll not get whichever kind of Brexit they want.

Leave voters seem either to disbelieve all the predictions of economic damage or find the EU so toxic they think the pain will be worth it.

Cognitive dissonance makes them believe their own delusions even harder, I think.

Sometimes it takes a lot of guts to admit you're wrong on an important issue. Most leave voters are utterly gutless and will claim black is white just so the nagging feeling of shame will be kept away for a little while longer.

McHrozni

 

[Lothian]

How is that going to make them feel safe around all those people speaking foreign? The problem originally cited was

"People voted to leave because the level of immigration was too high for too long and there's a threshold above which people get the gut feeling that their high street doesn't feel like home any more and they don't like it."

It isn't but my point is that they will feel unsafe whatever. If instead of a load of Polish fruit pickers their town was invaded by a load of previously unemployed geordies or scouse fruit pickers they would feel unsafe. Their problem is that the farms around them need fruit pickers, and whomever turns up will be incomers.

 

[Dave Rogers]

If instead of a load of Polish fruit pickers their town was invaded by a load of previously unemployed geordies or scouse fruit pickers they would feel unsafe.

Probably more unsafe, because at least the Poles would speak comprehensible English.

Dave

 

[Lothian]

Probably more unsafe, because at least the Poles would speak comprehensible English.

Dave

Hada wayan shy t'man

 

[Tolls]

It isn't but my point is that they will feel unsafe whatever. If instead of a load of Polish fruit pickers their town was invaded by a load of previously unemployed geordies or scouse fruit pickers they would feel unsafe. Their problem is that the farms around them need fruit pickers, and whomever turns up will be incomers.

And the High Streets would have even more empty shop fronts, as the Polish supermarket (or whatever) would have gone.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Quote doesn't mention "feel safe". It's about apparent composition of their neighborhood, not safety.

And that makes it less racist?

 

[Klimax]

And that makes it less racist?

Actually in this case, "racist" is incorrect term. (We are not separate "race".) And in any case, no. But getting underlying problem/concerns wrong prevents fixing core problem and thus escalation. And thus you get Brexit and Trump or Okamura...

 

[Lothian]

Actually in this case, "racist" is incorrect term.

Indeed, It is not down to race but when you see someone walking around Suffolk with less than 11 fingers, you know they are not from round there.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Indeed, It is not down to race but when you see someone walking around Suffolk with less than 11 fingers, you know they are not from round there.

Not necessarily, there are incompetent tree surgeons here as well.

Dave

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The 'Leaver' meeting at the Labour Conference sounds fun. They seem to have found literally a handful of the most bonkers MPs to say things like 'no deal is no problem' and 'we can just replace all the EU immigrants leaving with Filipinos'.

If people object to leavers being branded as cretins, idiots and racists then maybe they really need to find a few who aren't and promote them to more visible positions because the people who are speaking for you are not doing much for the brand.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Actually in this case, "racist" is incorrect term. (We are not separate "race".)

You are comparing good proper white folk to those swarthy poles?

Race is a rather imprecise term, and if southern european or slavic people are white was a long debate.

To quote Ben Franklin

"“[T]he Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted.”"

https://qz.com/904933/a-history-of-american-anti-immigrant-bias-starting-with-benjamin-franklins-hatred-of-the-germans/

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You are comparing good proper white folk to those swarthy poles?

Race is a rather imprecise term, and if southern european or slavic people are white was a long debate.

To quote Ben Franklin

"“[T]he Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted.”"

https://qz.com/904933/a-history-of-american-anti-immigrant-bias-starting-with-benjamin-franklins-hatred-of-the-germans/

I never really understood this argument... can we just agree racism encompasses a slightly broader field of bigotries than some pure definition of 'race' and move on? It matters not a jot what you call it and its really no defence of obnoxious behaviour to change its label.

 

[uke2se]

I never really understood this argument... can we just agree racism encompasses a slightly broader field of bigotries than some pure definition of 'race' and move on? It matters not a jot what you call it and its really no defence of obnoxious behaviour to change its label.

It's a surefire way to derail a conversation though, and that's the objective of anyone bringing up this defense of racists.

 

[Klimax]

I never really understood this argument... can we just agree racism encompasses a slightly broader field of bigotries than some pure definition of 'race' and move on? It matters not a jot what you call it and its really no defence of obnoxious behaviour to change its label.

Don't stretch ever meaning of word beyond reason or your use will backfire. And be careful with labels and attacks. Improper use tend to case bad damage.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Don't stretch ever meaning of word beyond reason or your use will backfire. And be careful with labels and attacks. Improper use tend to case bad damage.

Great now you will be telling me even the Irish are white. Crazy talk.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I never really understood this argument... can we just agree racism encompasses a slightly broader field of bigotries than some pure definition of 'race' and move on?

Given that no sufficiently pure definition of "race" even exists, I think that's the only way to move on.

Dave

 

[Ian Osborne]

According to Theresa May, it's partly the SNP's fault.

 

[fagin]

According to Theresa May, it's partly the SNP's fault.

Mmmm. Scotland voted remain in the majority.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Because the academic term "internal biases and preconceptions based on ethnicity" doesn't roll off the tongue and has thus not supplanted the previous term in our lexicon.

Can we move the conversation along?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Don't stretch ever meaning of word beyond reason or your use will backfire. And be careful with labels and attacks. Improper use tend to case bad damage.

Its not beyond reason to include attacks on specific nationalities or regions as racism though.