Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

[kellyb]

Except I don't consider myself to be liberal or conservative. I just want the best country and best world for the greatest number of people. You might peg me as a liberal but I see myself as a pragmatist.

You sound like a pragmatic socialist by my definition.

 

[Stacyhs]

The only thing we seem to be disagreeing on here is the premise that these costumes or nude displays somehow help the cause or help feminism. I would completely disagree with that concept. In fact, I think it may be one of the things that changes peoples perceptions on feminism in a bad way.

I'm all for anyone's right to protest. (as long as it's done legally)

I have to agree with River on this one. As a woman, a feminist, and a "leftie", I think the vagina costumes do women no favor. They look silly and make the women wearing them look like a bunch of extremist whack jobs. I understand the concept of bringing attention to the subject, but this is not the way to do it. Personally, I think it demeans a serious problem and invites derision.

 

[kellyb]

I have to agree with River on this one. As a woman, a feminist, and a "leftie", I think the vagina costumes do women no favor. They look silly and make the women wearing them look like a bunch of extremist whack jobs. I understand the concept of bringing attention to the subject, but this is not the way to do it. Personally, I think it demeans a serious problem and invites derision.

It's not something I would ever do, or that any of my feminist friends would ever do, but I also just don't care if a small handful of women I don't know and will never meet decided to do that. Like, it's just not on my radar of things to worry about. The sort of people who will use that to be like "See??? Those feminists are fools!" are looking for something, anything, to deride, anyway, so it makes no difference to me.

 

[Upchurch]

He convinced people to vote by campaigning

You know, with help from Russia with love.

Do I agree with all of his agenda? Nope.

[snip]

ETA: this is coming from someone that voted for Obama both terms.

Not to derail the thread, but what of his agenda do you agree with and what is the Vinn diagram of issues that makes one both a supporter of Obama and someone like Trump?

 

[acbytesla]

I'm a patriot and love this country, thank you very much. If Trump is found guilty of collusion with the Russians I hope he enjoys a nice sentencing from it. However, I seriously doubt that will happen. I do not think Trump colluded with anyone to win. He convinced people to vote by campaigning, and more than most presidents has already delivered on a lot of his campaign promises. Do I agree with all of his agenda? Nope. Also, I dislike his personality. To say someone that voted for Trump sold out their country is ignorant.

Let's get back to reality. To start with, there is no crime collusion. There is conspiracy. But it's highly unlikely that Trump will be indicted.by a criminal court, let alone stand trial. Even Nixon was NEVER indicted. Probably the only course of action is impeachment. And the GOP majority won't allow impeachment proceedings. But I disagree with you that Trump has fulfilled his campaign promises more than most President's.

1, Did he replace Obamacare with something better that would cover EVERYONE? NO, I don't think he ever came up with a proposal.
2. Did he build his stupid wall? NO.
3. Is Mexico going to pay for it? NO
4. Is he the infrastructure President? NO.
5. Did he present his income taxes? NO.
6. Is he not going to golf as much as Obama did? No, he's golfing more.
7. Did he drain the swamp? Hardly.
8. Is he making the country more respected around the world? They are only laughing at him and us.
9. Has he restored coal jobs in WV? Barely moved the needle.

Which campaign promises are you talking about? Giving huge tax breaks to the rich and corporations? With a Republican Congress, what did you expect?

 

[Craig4]

That's not fair. The world is not that simple. I wish it was.

It might not be fair but it is true. This time the world is that simple. We knew enough about Trump's links to Russia before the election to know he was in bed with them. Americans had a choice; they could have kept the presidency independent with a less than ideal candidate or sell the country out to the Russians. Sorry, if your choice was Trump, you're just not a loyal American and certainly no patriot.

 

[Craig4]

Except I don't consider myself to be liberal or conservative. I just want the best country and best world for the greatest number of people. You might peg me as a liberal but I see myself as a pragmatist.

Being anti Trump isn't about being liberal or conservative. It's about do you love your country or don't you? You can be conservative and be a patriot. You can't support Trump and be one.

 

[acbytesla]

You sound like a pragmatic socialist by my definition.

Im a strong believer in capitalism. But I believe that capitalism has its flaws and governments plays a role in softening it's rough edges. A lot of things that are called liberal are in fact good for American businesses.

 

[Minoosh]

The issue with left vs. right depends on where you set the ends of the spectrum. People aren't always talking about the same things.

Examples:
Completely secular vs. theocracy
Totally planned economy vs. total market economy
Against any gun rights vs. against any gun regulations
Right to choose, period, vs. right to life, period
The world's cop vs. complete isolationism
Collective interests vs. individual rights
Single-payer healthcare vs. total market freedom on health care
Dove vs. hawk
Open borders vs. excluding foreign labor

etc., etc., etc.

The people on this forum do lean toward secularism, UHC and gun control. Here they are the left; they wouldn't be in Australia, the UK, much of Europe etc. Former religious believers drawn to this forum will largely favor secularism. There is a tilt, but outside the U.S. the labels won't mean much, and many members are not in the U.S.

I once read that Iran had 17 political parties - all to the right of Newt Gingrich.

A girlfriend who thought she was a libertarian took a quiz and found out she liked Bernie Sanders.

 

[River]

When you start to make a new thread, at the very bottom of the screen you'll see a little box you can click that gives you the option of making a poll. See it at the bottom?

Right but it does not give any question boxes or ways to distinguish what text you would like for the poll options. Only a number of poll options. When previewing this, after selecting poll with a number of options, you still have no fields to specify as poll options or vote buttons or options.

 

[Stacyhs]

It's not something I would ever do, or that any of my feminist friends would ever do, but I also just don't care if a small handful of women I don't know and will never meet decided to do that. Like, it's just not on my radar of things to worry about. The sort of people who will use that to be like "See??? Those feminists are fools!" are looking for something, anything, to deride, anyway, so it makes no difference to me.

Are you disagreeing with me on some point or am I misunderstanding? I don't have a problem with them doing it other than I think they aren't doing feminism any favor. If it's the way they choose to protest, that's their right.

I do disagree with your statement that it's only the sort of people who are looking for something, anything to deride that would be put off by the costumes. I am put off by them and I'm certainly not one of that "sort of people". I asked my daughter to take a look to see her reaction to the pics. She found them ridiculous and just laughed at them and said she wouldn't be caught dead in one of them. And she's a strong feminist.

 

[kellyb]

Are you disagreeing with me on some point or am I misunderstanding? I don't have a problem with them doing it other than I think they aren't doing feminism any favor. If it's the way they choose to protest, that's their right.

I do disagree with your statement that it's only the sort of people who are looking for something, anything to deride that would be put off by the costumes. I am put off by them and I'm certainly not one of that "sort of people". I asked my daughter to take a look to see her reaction to the pics. She found them ridiculous and just laughed at them and said she wouldn't be caught dead in one of them. And she's a strong feminist.

I wasn't really disagreeing with you. Just sort of chiming in.

Regarding being "put off" by it...I'm just saying it's only people who are already looking to oppose feminism in general who will see a picture like that and find it meaningful in the grand scheme of things and illustrative of some core aspect of feminism.

 

[acbytesla]

Being anti Trump isn't about being liberal or conservative. It's about do you love your country or don't you? You can be conservative and be a patriot. You can't support Trump and be one.

Trump definitely ISN'T a conservative by any stretch of the imagination. Tariffs and massive deficits is the opposite of conservative. He promotes crony capitalism and doesn't have any principles that I can see.

 

[kellyb]

Im a strong believer in capitalism. But I believe that capitalism has its flaws and governments plays a role in softening it's rough edges. A lot of things that are called liberal are in fact good for American businesses.

I think markets as free as possible work really well for a lot of things, like restaurants and most consumer goods, but I also think the power of markets are not hindered by some producers being worker owned co-ops.

Capitalism and socialism are pretty abstract concepts. When it comes to how the government is run and policies worth advocating or supporting, I think you kind of have to look at it issue by issue, policy by policy, as removed as possible from (almost useless) ideological labels.

 

[Mumbles]

Trump definitely ISN'T a conservative by any stretch of the imagination. Tariffs and massive deficits is the opposite of conservative. He promotes crony capitalism and doesn't have any principles that I can see.

So, here's a question: what, in the US is an actual coherent view? It's certainly not what the current republican stance, but what would it be?

 

[kellyb]

Trump definitely ISN'T a conservative by any stretch of the imagination. Tariffs and massive deficits is the opposite of conservative. He promotes crony capitalism and doesn't have any principles that I can see.

He's a reality TV star, wannabe dictator.

That's it.

That's all we got going on with that guy, I think.

 

[kellyb]

So, here's a question: what, in the US is an actual coherent view? It's certainly not what the current republican stance, but what would it be?

Are you asking what a coherent conservative view would be, or just any internally coherent stance, anywhere along the political spectrum?

 

[Stacyhs]

I wasn't really disagreeing with you. Just sort of chiming in.

Regarding being "put off" by it...I'm just saying it's only people who are already looking to oppose feminism in general who will see a picture like that and find it meaningful in the grand scheme of things and illustrative of some core aspect of feminism.

Ah..ok. I see.

I agree that only those who are already anti-feminist will see it as something meaningful. But why hand anyone an obvious target and an opportunity to make feminists look like whack jobs? I prefer for us to be taken seriously.

 

[citizenzen]

It is true that some conservatives may find Trump so revolting that they abandon identifying as such. However, the same can be said of the left which has seemingly become all about socialism, and the "progressive" globalist voice. So the right went more right, and the left went more left. Now what?

That’s a broad brush you’re sweeping with.

It’s my experience that whenever someone tries to describe what the “other side” believes, they usually resort to simplistic straw man arguments.

My advice is to tell people what you believe and ask people what they believe. Once they tell you their thoughts, follow up based on the answers they give you.

Trying to sum up what a political persuasion is “all about” says more about the lens one sees through than it reveals the truth regarding that persuasion.

 

[kellyb]

Ah..ok. I see.

I agree that only those who are already anti-feminist will see it as something meaningful. But why hand anyone an obvious target and an opportunity to make feminists look like whack jobs? I prefer for us to be taken seriously.

Yeah, I feel ya'. I feel very " Jesus, people" over the whole thing, too, seeing those pictures. But I also kind of...I dunno...wonder if maybe *I'm* the one missing something? Like, is there a point they have that's going right over my head? lol Probably not, but I don't really care enough to hunt them down and ask.