Cont: Mueller Investigation pt3

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Stacyhs said:
Regarding the highlighted part, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't thinking anything was 'snarky'. I wanted to be sure that you didn't think I was being snarky. Without tone of voice heard in the written word, my comment "Have you ever watched Hannity's show" could be inferred as snark.

There is the world of difference between Woodward and Hannity. Woodward is a 45+ years experienced and well-respected investigative journalist and Pulitzer Prize winner. Hannity is an extreme right wing pundit and conspiracy theorist. He supported such nonsense as the 'Seth Rich was murdered by the Democrats' and the "Deep State" is out to overthrow Trump. Hannity enabled Trump with his Obama "birther" nonsense giving him a forum to spew that crap on his TV show and never really challenged him on it.
The fact that Trump is taking policy advice on an almost daily basis from Hannity is ludicrous and demonstrates Trump's lack of sense.
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Birther claims were total nonsense. Seth Rich conspiracies, likewise.

But in the case of the Mueller probe looking at a legitimate conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russian government? That is also nonsense. I don't care which newsperson is putting their spin on it. I just sense which basic story is more likely to be true - for this specific case.

If Woodward is right today, as he was then, then the basis for the Mueller probe is 'garbage' and there is no evidence to be found for collusion. He tried really hard to find it and could not.

It is a tool to keep an unpredictable and erratic president in check. It's a nothingburger otherwise. And I think when all is said and done, this method to try and control him will backfire.
 
Sherkeu said:
Birther claims were total nonsense. Seth Rich conspiracies, likewise.

But in the case of the Mueller probe looking at a legitimate conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russian government? That is also nonsense. I don't care which newsperson is putting their spin on it. I just sense which basic story is more likely to be true - for this specific case.

If Woodward is right today, as he was then, then the basis for the Mueller probe is 'garbage' and there is no evidence to be found for collusion. He tried really hard to find it and could not.

It is a tool to keep an unpredictable and erratic president in check. It's a nothingburger otherwise. And I think when all is said and done, this method to try and control him will backfire.
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Woodward did not, and does not, have access to information that Mueller does. Until the Mueller report is published, you cannot determine it is a "nothingburger". As was just pointed out, have you not read the emails concerning the Trump Tower meeting?

I don't know exactly what it is that Trump is terrified of Mueller finding out, but there is something. No one tries this hard to undermine and discredit an investigation if they don't fear it. Someone with nothing to hide encourages and supports an investigation because they expect it to vindicate them. Trump is acting about as guilty of something as possible.
 
Sherkeu said:
But in the case of the Mueller probe looking at a legitimate conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russian government? That is also nonsense. I don't care which newsperson is putting their spin on it. I just sense which basic story is more likely to be true - for this specific case.
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You'll take your "spidey sense" over factual evidence? Really?

The Mueller Investigation has so far resulted in the indictments and/or convictions of:

1. George Papadopoulos
Former Trump campaign foreign policy adviserConvicted of making false statements to the FBI.

2. Paul Manafort
Former Trump campaign chairmanConvicted on eight counts of financial crimes.
Pleaded guilty to a further 10 counts.

3. Rick Gates
Former Trump campaign aide and Manafort’s longtime junior business partner,
Pleaded guilty to making false statements and a charge of conspiracy.

4. Michael Flynn,
Former Trump national security adviserPleaded guilty last December to making false statements to the FBI.

5. Richard Pinedo
Pleaded guilty to an identity theft charge in connection with the Russian indictments, and has agreed to cooperate with Mueller.

6. Alex van der Zwaan
A London lawyer
Pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI about his contacts with Rick Gates and another unnamed person based in Ukraine.

7. Konstantin Kilimnik
Long time business associate of Manafort and Gates, who’s currently based in Russia
Charged alongside Manafort with attempting to obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses in Manafort’s pending case this year.

8. Michael Cohen
Former Trump lawyer and "fixer"
Pleaded guilty to 8 counts of tax and bank charges, related to his finances and taxi business, and campaign finance violations, related to hush money payments to women who alleged affairs with Donald Trump.

9. Sam Patten
Republican operative and lobbyist
Pleaded guilty to not registering as a foreign agent with his work for Ukrainian politicians and agreed to cooperate with the government.

Additionally;

Russian nationals (x13) and Russian companies (x3) indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft.
The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it.
The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.

Russian GRU officers (x12), members of Russia’s military intelligence service, were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016; an action they undertook at the public behest of Trump himself.

And you think this is all nonsense?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Sherkeu, seems like you've never heard of the Trump Tower meeting and the preceding emails.
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Of course I have. The russian lobbyist Veselnitskaya wanted the meeting to talk about the Magnitsky Act (adoption laws often used as a bargaining chip). It was the final quarter in a game Russian businesses were losing. In fact, the Globalized version of that Act was passed in December 2016. A huge setback for her and her clients.

And who was helping in her efforts? That would be Glenn Simpson of FusionGPS- who she met with before and after that meeting. Also Adam Waldman (another lobbyist) who later represented Steele, Assange, along with his normal Russian oligarch client Deripaska- also tied to Veselnitskaya (and to Mueller as well!).

I'm sure Mueller knows why he can't use that meeting as evidence of anything- other than Veselnitskayas bait-and-switch and Trump Jr's willingness to hear some Clinton dirt from her. I do hope that he includes why and how it happened in his report.
 
smartcooky said:
You'll take your "spidey sense" over factual evidence? Really?

The Mueller Investigation has so far resulted in the indictments and/or convictions of:

<snip>

And you think this is all nonsense?
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Show me which one of these peoole was charged for a conspiracy with the Russian state to interfere in the 2016 election.

That is the nonsense part.
 
Sherkeu said:
Show me which one of these peoole was charged for a conspiracy with the Russian state to interfere in the 2016 election.

That is the nonsense part.
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Russian nationals (x13) and Russian companies (x3) indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft.
The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it.
The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.

Russian GRU officers (x12), members of Russia’s military intelligence service, were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016; an action they undertook at the public behest of Trump himself.

:confused::confused::confused:
 
Sherkeu said:
The press is always some adivsor.
...
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I don't think we have the same definition of adviser.

Using evidence including something like press reports that gage to some extent popular reaction is not the same as 'getting advice'.

Talking to Hannity daily and checking Fox News for the latest CT or other rationalization for one's decisions is getting advice.
 
Sherkeu said:
I dont watch it. I dont have have cable, so I read everything mostly. I'm not even sure why you think it is snark.

Should the Americans have believed Woodward over the dozen people close to Nixon? might they have had some press working against them?
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Very bad analogy. :rolleyes:

Sherkeu said:
... If if if it come in the mueller probe that people need to 'learn' somethng? Like FiSA or texts?Republicans will win. Mark my words here. Republicans WILL WIN.

It';s why tthey won the first time. People want to KNOW.
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I don't know what you think people want to know that they aren't already hearing.

Republicans are winning because they are very good at propaganda and they have an unfair advantage at the moment with the EC, the way Senators are allocated and gerrymandering.

Losing the POTUS despite a 3 million vote lead is proof something is wrong.

They can't win if it were a true democracy. What we need is better voter turnout to overcome the fact our votes count less than GOP votes.
 
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TheL8Elvis said:
Russian nationals (x13) and Russian companies (x3) indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft.
The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it.
The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.

Russian GRU officers (x12), members of Russia’s military intelligence service, were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016; an action they undertook at the public behest of Trump himself.

:confused::confused::confused:
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Trump calls out Russia in case they find the 33000 missing clinton emails and that equals conspiracy with a foreign government to interfere in an election? Is that going to be the basis for the collusion?
Im sure the Russians were just waiting to get their marching orders from Trump on TV.
He also asked China. Mueller should tie him to the Chinese govt too.
 
Sherkeu said:
Trump calls out Russia in case they find the 33000 missing clinton emails and that equals conspiracy with a foreign government to interfere in an election? Is that going to be the basis for the collusion?
Im sure the Russians were just waiting to get their marching orders from Trump on TV.
He also asked China. Mueller should tie him to the Chinese govt too.
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where did those goalposts go ? :rolleyes:
 
Sherkeu said:
Of course I have. The russian lobbyist Veselnitskaya wanted the meeting to talk about the Magnitsky Act (adoption laws often used as a bargaining chip). It was the final quarter in a game Russian businesses were losing. In fact, the Globalized version of that Act was passed in December 2016. A huge setback for her and her clients.

And who was helping in her efforts? That would be Glenn Simpson of FusionGPS- who she met with before and after that meeting. Also Adam Waldman (another lobbyist) who later represented Steele, Assange, along with his normal Russian oligarch client Deripaska- also tied to Veselnitskaya (and to Mueller as well!).

I'm sure Mueller knows why he can't use that meeting as evidence of anything- other than Veselnitskayas bait-and-switch and Trump Jr's willingness to hear some Clinton dirt from her. I do hope that he includes why and how it happened in his report.
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Wow! That's quite some koolaide there.
 
Sherkeu said:
Birther claims were total nonsense. Seth Rich conspiracies, likewise.

But in the case of the Mueller probe looking at a legitimate conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russian government? That is also nonsense. I don't care which newsperson is putting their spin on it. I just sense which basic story is more likely to be true - for this specific case.

If Woodward is right today, as he was then, then the basis for the Mueller probe is 'garbage' and there is no evidence to be found for collusion. He tried really hard to find it and could not.

It is a tool to keep an unpredictable and erratic president in check. It's a nothingburger otherwise. And I think when all is said and done, this method to try and control him will backfire.
Click to expand...

The Great Zaganza said:
Sherkeu, seems like you've never heard of the Trump Tower meeting and the preceding emails.
Click to expand...

And this is something that I gave up on - simply because there was too much information but this was a small section of what was in the public domain by December 2017. Remember that a lot of the investigation started after Trump Jr kept changing hsi story about eh Trump tower meeting.



Mar 19| Podesta email hacked
Apr 19| DCLeaks.com registered
May 3| Trump becomes presumptive nominee
June 3| Goldstone contacts Trump Jr. to setup meeting which promises to discuss Clinton June 7 17:16 | Don Jr. confirms meeting w/ Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya June7 21:13 | Trump promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt
June 8| Trump posts link to DCLeaks
June 9| Trump Jr, Kushner, Manafort meet with Russian operative
June 9 | Trump Jr calls blocked number immediately after meeting claims he can't recall whether his father's number is blocked (others have confirmed it is)
June 12| Assange announces Clinton emails
June 27| Hacked emails posted to DCLeaks
July 11| Trump/Manafort nix pro-Ukranian plank in GOP platform (and lie about it)
Late July | Malware researchers spot unusual server activity between Trump server and Alfa Bank
Aug 21| Roger Stone writes "it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel"
Oct -7 | Pussygate video released
Oct 7| Wikileaks releases Podesta emails (an hour later)
Dec- 29 | Flynn Consults With Transition Team, Then Calls Kislyak
Dec 30 | Putin Declines to Retaliate
2017 |
Jan 15 | Pence Says He Is Unaware of Flynn’s Discussions
Jan 26| Sally Yates meets White House Counsel and warns that Flynn is lying and the Russians can prove it - making him a blackmail risk
Feb 9| Flynn’s Conversation Is Revealed by WaPo
Feb 13 | Flynn fired
Feb 14 | White House Says Flynn Violated President’s Trust
Feb 14| Trump asks FBI Director Comey to drop investigation into Flynn
May 9| Comey is fired
May| DOJ drops money laundering case against client of Natalia Veselnitskaya
May 11| Trump tells NBC he considered "this Russia thing" before firing Comey
May 12| Democrats ask questions about the DoJ dropping the money lanudering case
 
TheL8Elvis said:
where did those goalposts go ? :rolleyes:
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I was wondering the same thng. Let's redefine conspiracy to add in things Trump jokes about on tv. (and, yes, it was a very stupid thiing to say, as much of his statements are)
If that was enough, they had him right then. Pick him up and cart him off!
 
Sherkeu said:
I was wondering the same thng. Let's redefine conspiracy to add in things Trump jokes about on tv. (and, yes, it was a very stupid thiing to say, as much of his statements are)
If that was enough, they had him right then. Pick him up and cart him off!
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Or, of course, wait and see what other evidence there is.

You and I don't know whether Mueller has other evidence. Maybe so, maybe not. I'll wait and see.
 
Sherkeu said:
Show me which one of these peoole was charged for a conspiracy with the Russian state to interfere in the 2016 election.
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Done by The Late Elvis in post 2250 (thanks Elvis)

But I'll add....

smartcooky said:
Russian GRU officers (x12), members of Russia’s military intelligence service, were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016; an action they undertook at the public behest of Trump himself.
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He asked them to find the missing emails, they did so, by hacking into computers... that is a crime.

When you ask someone to do something on your behalf, and they do so, that is collision. While collusion is not in, and of itself, a criminal act, when you collude with someone to carry out a criminal act, then that collusion becomes a criminal act.... its called "conspiracy"

Sherkeu said:
That is the nonsense part.
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Its only appears to be nonsense to you because you don't understand that the results of the investigation are not yet out. You also don't appear to understand that what we have seen so far is probably just the collateral damage (keep Al Capone in mind - he was a ruthless criminal and gangster, but what they got him for in the end, was tax evasion).

You are probably not old enough to remember Watergate - I am, and I recall clearly that many people thought Woodward and Bernstein were talking nonsense; that the President could not possibly have been involved in something like that... but he was! Tricky Dicky was in it up to his neck.

Just be patient. If there is anything to find, I am confident (based on the investigation's record so far) that Mueller will find it. Remember, The Special Counsel's office does not leak, and no-one outside of it knows what he has found. When it does come out, if he has found collusion/conspiracy you will find that it is packed with minute, irrefutable detail.
 
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