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Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

acbytesla said:
What's wrong with that? Do pussies frighten you?
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You'd not see me in public with a huge penis on my head, or dressing as one not on halloween. For politics? Hell no.

Also, I'm quite OK with pussies of all kinds. Perhaps you've never viewed any of my photography. Do I think the pussy costumes are a good message for feminism? Nope. Opinions may vary.
 
Cabbage said:
...and what aspects of the

1) Whites are more victimized than blacks/Whites are the real minority

2) Christians are persecuted in America (War on Christmas BS, for example)

...tenets of today's Republican party prevents them from being, in your mind, identity politics?

Republicans constantly condemn Democrats for playing victimization "narratives" with minorities who truly are victimized by society, while hypocritically playing victimization narratives with those who in fact enjoy privileged positions in society.
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We've come a long way in the USA regarding racism. It can get better. Luckily we have good laws that help prosecute those that would commit hate crimes or use race to discriminate against people for work or housing etc. We just had in a white majority country a black president for two terms and the highest law official in the country was a black woman. I'd say that's not so shabby. Also of note; ethnic minority groups hold the highest average income in this country. (Indian and Asian)

Does racism still happen? Absolutely. As I said, things can get better. It doesn't get better by folks like Farrakhan preaching hate though.

Which countries currently (top 3) have the highest average income for black people? It is hard to find stats from google searches and I don't have good databases bookmarked for such things.

I know that the USA is the most desired destination for potential immigrants from some poll numbers. Also, we take in more immigrants than any other country. It's not perfect here, but it can't be too terrible if it's the most desired destination by immigrants.

Speaking on that, I dated someone for 5 years that was an immigrant from Peru. (legally) She became a naturalized citizen after being here for 7 years. I saw how hard it was for her to complete that process, and also saw how proud she was to become American. It was a huge deal to her. She experienced some racism along the way here, but she said its nothing compared to what she saw in Peru regarding people of color there.

I'm curious, how do you feel that things can be improved here in the USA? What would you suggest?
 
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River said:
I know that the USA is the most desired destination for potential immigrants from some poll numbers. Also, we take in more immigrants than any other country. It's not perfect here, but it can't be too terrible if it's the most desired destination by immigrants.
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well, we have the 2016 numbers.
But the Trump administration is spending hundreds of millions to bring that number down.
As a sidenote: in 2016, the US accepted only little more migrants than Germany, which has only a quarter the population and the size of Montana.

In the face of the crisis in Syria (exacerbated in no small part by the US), we do less, not more than before.
 
River said:
We've come a long way in the USA regarding racism. It can get better. Luckily we have good laws that help prosecute those that would commit hate crimes or use race to discriminate against people for work or housing etc. We just had in a white majority country a black president for two terms and the highest law official in the country was a black woman. I'd say that's not so shabby. Also of note; ethnic minority groups hold the highest average income in this country. (Indian and Asian)

Does racism still happen? Absolutely. As I said, things can get better. It doesn't get better by folks like Farrakhan preaching hate though.

Which countries currently (top 3) have the highest average income for black people? It is hard to find stats from google searches and I don't have good databases bookmarked for such things.

I know that the USA is the most desired destination for potential immigrants from some poll numbers. Also, we take in more immigrants than any other country. It's not perfect here, but it can't be too terrible if it's the most desired destination by immigrants.

Speaking on that, I dated someone for 5 years that was an immigrant from Peru. (legally) She became a naturalized citizen after being here for 7 years. I saw how hard it was for her to complete that process, and also saw how proud she was to become American. It was a huge deal to her. She experienced some racism along the way here, but she said its nothing compared to what she saw in Peru regarding people of color there.

I'm curious, how do you feel that things can be improved here in the USA? What would you suggest?
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None of that really answers the question I was most curious about, which is whether or not you are able to recognize the extent to which Republicans also play identity politics. Hypocritically, I should add.

Regarding your last question, I never claimed I had any answers or solutions at all; however, how about this:

With respect to Black Lives Matter (which your response did not acknowledge at all), I would like to see police held more accountable through things such as mandatory body cameras and independent grand juries when police are subject to potential indictments.

Do you take issue with suggestions like these?
 
River said:
We've come a long way in the USA regarding racism. It can get better. Luckily we have good laws that help prosecute those that would commit hate crimes or use race to discriminate against people for work or housing etc. We just had in a white majority country a black president for two terms and the highest law official in the country was a black woman. I'd say that's not so shabby. Also of note; ethnic minority groups hold the highest average income in this country. (Indian and Asian)

Does racism still happen? Absolutely. As I said, things can get better. It doesn't get better by folks like Farrakhan preaching hate though.
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The key difference, for this discussion, between Farrakhan and Dolt 45, aside from the direction of their racism, is that the former is a fringe religious figure, while the latter is head federal branch of the US government.

If you want to know how to "defeat racism", step 1 is to reduce people like Toupee Fiasco to the insignificance of Farrakhan - and step 2 is to reform the GOP so that it no longer nurses aggrieved white supremacists like him - or Steve Bannon, David Duke, Steve Miller, Jeff Sessions, Steve King, and so forth.

And that...is something for white people to do. They are, after all, the only racial group whose voters mostly voted for him.
 
Cabbage said:
None of that really answers the question I was most curious about, which is whether or not you are able to recognize the extent to which Republicans also play identity politics. Hypocritically, I should add.

Regarding your last question, I never claimed I had any answers or solutions at all; however, how about this:

With respect to Black Lives Matter (which your response did not acknowledge at all), I would like to see police held more accountable through things such as mandatory body cameras and independent grand juries when police are subject to potential indictments.

Do you take issue with suggestions like these?
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I think those are excellent ideas, and I'm definitely pro body camera. There has been enough years of three stories. (theirs, the others and the truth) Cameras don't lie. They can be turned on and off though and I've seen a few cops busted when they thought cameras were turned off planting evidence. That said, I'm more of a thin blue line supporter than any group.
 
It's interesting that the main response to "Democrats/Progressives should drop the identity politics and get a new message" has been "Well, Republicans/conservatives do it too". It appears to be intended as a counter to the original, but it isn't. Both could very well be true: we could live in a world where Republicans/conservatives do it too and it would also be in Democrats'/progressives' best interests to stop (or at least tone it down).
 
On the Federal Level, there isn't really anything to do to get votes but Identity Politics (which both sides do in spades):
what various states and cities need various greatly, which means that whatever policy is proposed, large parts of the citizenry will feel excluded.
Identity Politics sidesteps the "policies" part by just representing a "us vs. them": the core of Trump's campaign and daily tweets.
This way, all your side has to achieve is to stop the other side; the biggest problem of the GOP is that there are no Democrats to stop them, which leads the country into an abyss neither side really wants.
 
Back on the original subject, "conservative voices"...

The main problem among opponents to progressivism, which also becomes the main problem for progressives trying to oppose them, is that most of the commoners in that group don't really listen to the main public figures who are alleged to lead and represent them... either literally, or in the figurative sense of being aware of some what they say but only agreeing with parts of it and not others.

Thus, as far as they're concerned, the vile stuff that comes from some such public figures is always just what some other people somewhere else say, not any of their "us", but which the left keeps acting like everybody who's not themselves says. This has resulted in such accusations being habitually ignored as lies because they've always been lies in their experience before... which creates a positive feedback loop because then it seems likely to be lies even when they are referring to specific things that actually were really said by one particular famous person or another: I didn't hear him say it, but I do know his accusers lie about this kind of stuff all the time, so I don't believe he said it.
 
Delvo said:
It's interesting that the main response to "Democrats/Progressives should drop the identity politics and get a new message" has been "Well, Republicans/conservatives do it too". It appears to be intended as a counter to the original, but it isn't. Both could very well be true: we could live in a world where Republicans/conservatives do it too and it would also be in Democrats'/progressives' best interests to stop (or at least tone it down).
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The reality is that those complaining that Progressives/Democrats are using identity politics are actually complaining that the bigotry of the Right Wing is being called out. They should just say, "stop pointing out our racism/homophobia/misogyny," at least that's honest.
 
Delvo said:
It's interesting that the main response to "Democrats/Progressives should drop the identity politics and get a new message" has been "Well, Republicans/conservatives do it too". It appears to be intended as a counter to the original, but it isn't. Both could very well be true: we could live in a world where Republicans/conservatives do it too and it would also be in Democrats'/progressives' best interests to stop (or at least tone it down).
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The thing that gets me is the double standard. It's the fad now for Republicans to give Democrats friendly advice about how they need to raise the bar and put out better candidates and have better issues, while at the same time backing a born-on-third-base former reality game show host who pushes white nationalism.
 
The GOP has lost a, I would argue critical, number of voices in the last two years, either because they became never-Trumpers or because they became unbearable for their advertisers.
What's left is just waiting for the signal to abandon Trump - but until then they will pretend to support him.
 
River said:
I think those are excellent ideas, and I'm definitely pro body camera. There has been enough years of three stories. (theirs, the others and the truth) Cameras don't lie. They can be turned on and off though and I've seen a few cops busted when they thought cameras were turned off planting evidence. That said, I'm more of a thin blue line supporter than any group.
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Of course you are unless the cops are investigating Republicans. Then you want to stop them from doing their job. You're pro-cop as long as it isn't your rights or life is threatened. You act as if discrimination ended with the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
 
River said:
You'd not see me in public with a huge penis on my head, or dressing as one not on halloween. For politics? Hell no.

Also, I'm quite OK with pussies of all kinds. Perhaps you've never viewed any of my photography. Do I think the pussy costumes are a good message for feminism? Nope. Opinions may vary.
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It's a protest. Have a sense of humor.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Yes, and they like to tell Democrats to play nice while they fight dirty.
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There's a fine line between that and the Democrats obsessively needing to have the absolute nicest possible moral high ground from which to watch their defeats from, save in the knowledge that they didn't dirty their souls.

In politics "Good" is a very hard to define term and we could argue its exact nuances all day but in the broad strokes I'm going the classic trope of... good is not nice.

And the Dems could do well to sometimes, sometimes, act a little bit less like a man who's happily chopped of his own balls and given them to his wife to keep in her purse.
 
JoeMorgue said:
There's a fine line between that and the Democrats obsessively needing to have the absolute nicest possible moral high ground from which to watch their defeats from, save in the knowledge that they didn't dirty their souls.

In politics "Good" is a very hard to define term and we could argue its exact nuances all day but in the broad strokes I'm going the classic trope of... good is not nice.

And the Dems could do well to sometimes, sometimes, act a little bit less like a man who's happily chopped of his own balls and given them to his wife to keep in her purse.
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That's a visual I could have lived without. Ouch.
 
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