Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

[lomiller]

Please, where is this clarion call for open borders? I'm not hearing it. You seem to be confusing wanting humane enforcement of our immigration laws with open borders. Or perhaps it's the entirely sane and reasonable objection to a border wall we don't need and can't afford as a call for open borders? Setting aside a few fringe voices, the Democratic Party is not calling for open borders.

Also worth noting is that a true Libertarian, which most consider right wing ideology, should oppose any type of border or immigration restrictions under the principle that governments should not be interfering in social or economic activity.

Advocates of Social Democracy (which is NOT the same thing as Socialism) would look to restrict immigration but only to the point where it does not become a drag on peoples well being or the nations economic efficiency. IOW as long as it’s not causing major issues it would be allowed. This seems more or less where Democrats are at.

Trump supports are also probably closer to the latter, but with the caveat that in their minds “not white” and/or “not us” qualifies as a major issue.

 

[River]

Harris is a well known and respected neuroscientist and atheist. Has written many books. Highly recommend End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation and The Moral Landscape. He doesn't pull punches. He is highly critical of political correctness, the left and the right.

There are lots of clips of Harris on YouTube

I looked up some clips of Harris last night on youtube. Enjoyed some of the exchanges. That's one of the cool things about having discussions like this. Sometimes you discover things you missed or haven't seen -- or a view point you haven't considered.

 

[kellyb]

I would think that a growing echo chamber with the remaining members being polarised and unwilling to listen to each other would be a bit of a problem on a discussion forum dedicated to critical thinking, wouldn't you?



Speaking of evidence, do you have any for this claim? Outside of the obvious climate change example?

I just don't think it's really an echo chamber. The GOP loyalists really have fallen off the deep end.

There is a lot of legitimate debate here, but it's between "the solidly left" and "the centrists". I'm one of those solidly left folks, and when I'm in the mood to interact with an echochamber of my liking, I go to this forum:

https://jackpineradicals.com/forums/

ISF, on the other hand, is swimming in "conservative centrists." I think a UBI and a federal jobs guarantee should be on the table, but if I were to start a thread about that here, I'd probably be met with a whole, whole lot of vehement disagreement.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Echo chamber? I don't create echo chambers. I just get rid of toxic people, don't stoop to their level, don't give them the satisfaction, or don't want to get credence to their opinions by arguing with them.

Now the other side... when they don't want to argue with me. That... that's creating an echo chamber.

That's just obvious.

 

[Belz...]

I just don't think it's really an echo chamber. The GOP loyalists really have fallen off the deep end.

Yes but my point is that several left-leaning posters have gone to their own deep end, too. Apparently someone redesigned the swimming pool without telling me... and that's a pretty stupid analogy. Sorry.

There is a lot of legitimate debate here, but it's between "the solidly left" and "the centrists".

There's quite a bit of threads where the solidly left refuses to even allow dissenting opinions on various topics. Hell, you can't even state facts if those are thought to be offensive. So much for left-leaning reality.

 

[River]

You have been misinformed about what Socialism is. There really isn't anything Socialist in mainstream Democratic policy and support for actual Socialism has declined to almost non-existence in US politics.

Rather than the US Democrats becoming more Socialist what's happened is that Republicans have increased their use of "Socialist" and "Socialism" as pejoratives. This has altered how you perceive the political spectrum (as intended) but that perception is different from reality.

This definition seems pretty accurate. Do you agree with it? If not feel free to amend.

so·cial·ism
ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism; More
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism; More
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

On that note: how do you feel about a nationalized universal basic income program? How do you feel about capitalism?

 

[kellyb]

I thought that Belz... was being specific that the breakdown was outside of politics, so I don't know what that has to do with left-leaning-ness.

The way people think about "social issues and current events" tends to be very political with a whole lot of the subject matter, like gun control, transgender rights, modren American policing, etc and so on.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree with you in the specifics.

In the abstract not voting in your own self interest shouldn't be demonized.

If that makes any sense.

It does make sense. But only if in the end it makes the whole greater. And maybe in a way it does. But it shouldn't be martyrdom.

What I've noticed in my life is the pie has gotten bigger and bigger ....which is good. Unfortunately the vast majority of us are still getting crumbs while a few have seen their slice grow exponentially.

What has happened is that the wealthy have successfully persuaded many poor whites that the reason they are poor are other poor people of color or government assistance that gives people a hand. How someone of limited means could vote against health care and against increases in the minimum wage is beyond me. How they could vote for candidates who promote only tax cuts for the rich and cuts to the safety net is moronic.

The GDP per capita has quadrupled since the 70s but median income after inflation has stayed flat. The latest GOP tax cuts has been great for Wall Street. My portfolio has grown by 25 percent. But it has done virtually nothing for non-investors

 

[Imhotep]

This definition seems pretty accurate. Do you agree with it? If not feel free to amend.

so·cial·ism
ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.synonyms: leftism, welfarism; More
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism; More
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.

On that note: how do you feel about a nationalized universal basic income program? How do you feel about capitalism?

The highlighted text is the core definition. The synonyms listed, and the connections to Marxism are tenuous and misleading. But remember dictionaries incorporate usage into definitions even when it's bad usage.

Basically it's a defeated ideology but the right wants to bring it back as a punching bag.

 

[kellyb]

Yes but my point is that several left-leaning posters have gone to their own deep end, too. Apparently someone redesigned the swimming pool without telling me... and that's a pretty stupid analogy. Sorry.

Yeah, I can see how it might look/seem like that. It's not a stupid analogy.

From our perspective, we just shifted the Overton Window so that stuff like single payer in the US could be talked about in the MSM, because in 2007, it was still considered really "too out there" for serious people to look like they were seriously considering.

There's quite a bit of threads where the solidly left refuses to even allow dissenting opinions on various topics. Hell, you can't even state facts if those are thought to be offensive. So much for left-leaning reality.

Can you give me an example of one such topic? "The left" is really not monolithic. They aggressive 18 yo "extreme SJW types" are not all that uncommon, but they they're not typical of "the solidly left".

 

[River]

I don't think he's entirely wrong. I think there's a definite left lean to the forum; has been since forever, and moreso now that many of our old conservative members left or have been banned. As for the second claim, well, in politics it might not show too much, but in other sections of the forum I have noticed a certain breaking down of rational discourse. Again this is partly due to many of our more thoughtful members leaving.

To be clear on my perception, it would appear that the shift went from critical thinking to more of an SJW feel here over the years.

 

[kellyb]

To be clear on my perception, it would appear that the shift went from critical thinking to more of an SJW feel here over the years.

Can you name a specific topic that you think is the quintessential example of that?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

To be clear on my perception, it would appear that the shift went from critical thinking to more of an SJW feel here over the years.

example?
or is this just a feeling?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay does anyone here really believe that "their" side, how ever they wish to define it, is devoid of anyone who acts or argues unreasonably or too extremely?

We don't to parade examples of the other side nor demanding our opponents provide examples of our side. We all know they exist, don't we?

 

[lomiller]

Yeah, I remember 10 or 12 years ago, the phrase "Reality has a distinctly liberal bias" being uttered here rather a lot.

And as the GOP has gotten progressively nuttier in the meantime, and since the facebook are redditt echochambers have become a thing, I think it might just make sense that more conservatives than liberals have found the skepticism community not quite as good of a fit for them now.

Many of the current “liberals” were once on the “conservative” end of the spectrum. Increasingly Democratic supporters are an alliance of “conservatives” and “liberals” against Republicanism. You make a pretty good example of someone who leans more towards the left of the Democratic party, meanwhile there are also people with much different viewpoints who are much different than yourself who also get tagged as "liberals" because they oppose what the Republican party has become and generally support the Democrats.

 

[autumn1971]

Kick me if I’m wrong, but most modern Socialists are about certain segments of the economy being vital enough at the State level that distribution of resources should be community controlled, but well within a capitalist market economy.

It’s not late nineteenth century Europe. Once command-economies start being mentioned modern socialism is not in play.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I would argue that the US Defense Industry is basically State-Controlled from start to finish.

 

[Belz...]

Yeah, I can see how it might look/seem like that.

Can you see how it could be like that?

It's not a stupid analogy.

Any analogy that makes swimming pools have two opposite deep ends seems pretty dumb to me!

Can you give me an example of one such topic?

Here's one:

For merely stating that a trans woman is a biological male and is thereofre factually wrong in their perception, I was told that I was in favour of bullying trans people to suicide.

"The left" is really not monolithic. They aggressive 18 yo "extreme SJW types" are not all that uncommon, but they they're not typical of "the solidly left".

Ok then, I misunderstood. How do you define "solidly left"?

 

[autumn1971]

I would argue that the US Defense Industry is basically State-Controlled from start to finish.

It is entirely socialist, but companies make bids based on the market price of the product. Only the distribution is State controlled and even that is motivated by the will of the voters.

Socialism and Free-Market Capitalism in harmony

ETA: Or else you hate the troops ��

 

[Belz...]

Kick me if I’m wrong, but most modern Socialists are about certain segments of the economy being vital enough at the State level that distribution of resources should be community controlled, but well within a capitalist market economy.

It’s not late nineteenth century Europe. Once command-economies start being mentioned modern socialism is not in play.

<kick>











You didn't say anything about not kicking you if you were right.