Split Thread Conservative Voices (Split from Muller Investigation)

[carlitos]

So what if there is?

Can we separate cause and effect? Because this forum tends to be frequented by intelligent, reasonable, well read people whose opinions can be swayed by evidence. Those type of people do tend to be left leaning.

What's next, you'll bemoan the low representation of creationists, flat earthers, and truthers here?

Observing that the forum is left-leaning is not "bemoaning" anything.

 

[acbytesla]

The grandfather, too, going back to 1888. He was part of the railroad monopoly "robber baron" crowd.
http://exiledonline.com/the-birth-o...started-in-a-little-texas-town-called-quanah/

What I really love are the poor low income suckers that buy into their nonsense as if they will ever benefit from it. The Kochs really went to work transforming the Republican party to a really stupid racist and grossly inequitable ideology. I suspect however that at it's core it is purely mercenary. Their idea of a better America is not less inequality but more. That the rest of us are here merely to support the rich and powerful.

 

[kellyb]

So what if there is?

Can we separate cause and effect? Because this forum tends to be frequented by intelligent, reasonable, well read people whose opinions can be swayed by evidence. Those type of people do tend to be left leaning.

What's next, you'll bemoan the low representation of creationists, flat earthers, and truthers here?

Yeah, I remember 10 or 12 years ago, the phrase "Reality has a distinctly liberal bias" being uttered here rather a lot.

And as the GOP has gotten progressively nuttier in the meantime, and since the facebook are redditt echochambers have become a thing, I think it might just make sense that more conservatives than liberals have found the skepticism community not quite as good of a fit for them now.

 

[kellyb]

Observing that the forum is left-leaning is not "bemoaning" anything.

"I have noticed a certain breaking down of rational discourse. Again this is partly due to many of our more thoughtful members leaving.


^^^ that sure does sound like "bemoaning" to me.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I can imagine that for conservatives who get a lot of info on Drudge and maybe Breitbart, coming her must feel like being in a different universe.

 

[kellyb]

What I really love are the poor low income suckers that buy into their nonsense as if they will ever benefit from it. The Kochs really went to work transforming the Republican party to a really stupid racist and grossly inequitable ideology. I suspect however that at it's core it is purely mercenary. Their idea of a better America is not less inequality but more. That the rest of us are here merely to support the rich and powerful.

At least they're finally getting hoisted on their own petard to some extent in the age of Trumpism taking over the GOP, and strongly hinted that they had to support Hillary in 2016.

They give so few interviews and write virtually no op ed things, so it's hard to know what they really think. I deeply suspect they're just basic, oldschool social darwinists, tho.

 

[JoeMorgue]

What I really love are the poor low income suckers that buy into their nonsense as if they will ever benefit from it. The Kochs really went to work transforming the Republican party to a really stupid racist and grossly inequitable ideology. I suspect however that at it's core it is purely mercenary. Their idea of a better America is not less inequality but more. That the rest of us are here merely to support the rich and powerful.

I agree with you in the specifics.

In the abstract not voting in your own self interest shouldn't be demonized.

If that makes any sense.

 

[lomiller]

However, the same can be said of the left which has seemingly become all about socialism

You have been misinformed about what Socialism is. There really isn't anything Socialist in mainstream Democratic policy and support for actual Socialism has declined to almost non-existence in US politics.

Rather than the US Democrats becoming more Socialist what's happened is that Republicans have increased their use of "Socialist" and "Socialism" as pejoratives. This has altered how you perceive the political spectrum (as intended) but that perception is different from reality.

 

[kellyb]

I agree with you in the specifics.

In the abstract not voting in your own self interest shouldn't be demonized.

If that makes any sense.

Voting altruistically against your own self-interest can laudable and pro-social. Voting for someone who wants to invade some other country to loot them for their natural resources might be in my own best interest. But it would be morally wrong.

But the GOP loyalists who desperately need the social safety net while voting for people out to cut and eventually destroy it are doing so out of some crazy, religious-like loyalty to the party. It's madness.

 

[Belz...]

Can you give me an example of "breakdown of rational discourse" there?

Kelly, I'm not claiming that this is a scientific study I made. I just have the impression that the social discourse in that section has become more belligerent and more polarised since 2005, that's all.

 

[Belz...]

The grandfather, too, going back to 1888. He was part of the railroad monopoly "robber baron" crowd.
http://exiledonline.com/the-birth-o...started-in-a-little-texas-town-called-quanah/

That's quite a family history, there.

So what if there is?

I would think that a growing echo chamber with the remaining members being polarised and unwilling to listen to each other would be a bit of a problem on a discussion forum dedicated to critical thinking, wouldn't you?

Can we separate cause and effect? Because this forum tends to be frequented by intelligent, reasonable, well read people whose opinions can be swayed by evidence. Those type of people do tend to be left leaning.

Speaking of evidence, do you have any for this claim? Outside of the obvious climate change example?

What's next, you'll bemoan the low representation of creationists, flat earthers, and truthers here?

 

[Belz...]

What I really love are the poor low income suckers that buy into their nonsense as if they will ever benefit from it

Ah, but remember Rubio's statement that the US is a country of haves and soon-to-haves? Leaving aside how dishonest and manipulative that is, it's part of a way of thinking that makes people vote against their own interest, perhaps in part because they believe, one day, they'll be part of that 1%. Just you wait.

 

[kellyb]

You have been misinformed about what Socialism is. There really isn't anything Socialist in mainstream Democratic policy and support for actual Socialism has declined to almost non-existence in US politics.

Rather than the US Democrats becoming more Socialist what's happened is that Republicans have increased their use of "Socialist" and "Socialism" as pejoratives. This has altered how you perceive the political spectrum (as intended) but that perception is different from reality.

I mention this frequently, but I feel the need to again. Orwell, a self-identified "socialist", wrote a lot in his essays about how the word "socialism" was functionally meaningless, and that was back in the 40's. The situation has not improved in the intervening years.

Whenever we're talking about policies, I think we need to just be very specific about the nuts and bolts of the policies. Members of the congressional progressive caucus have been calling themselves "democrtatic socialists" for well over a decade. It kind of works for them. Those of us who have been voting for them understand that they mean stuff like "supports UHC", not "is plotting to install Stalism" LOL

 

[Imhotep]

You have been misinformed about what Socialism is. There really isn't anything Socialist in mainstream Democratic policy and support for actual Socialism has declined to almost non-existence in US politics.

Rather than the US Democrats becoming more Socialist what's happened is that Republicans have increased their use of "Socialist" and "Socialism" as pejoratives. This has altered how you perceive the political spectrum (as intended) but that perception is different from reality.

Spot on, well summarized.

The core meaning, "the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" has little in common with the modern corruption of the word.

 

[Belz...]

Voting altruistically against your own self-interest can laudable and pro-social.

Right. There's a difference between voting for policies that will advantage your fellow citizens at your own expense, and voting for something that'll hurt you when you think you'll actually benefit from it.

 

[kellyb]

Kelly, I'm not claiming that this is a scientific study I made. I just have the impression that the social discourse in that section has become more belligerent and more polarised since 2005, that's all.

Maybe. I haven't noticed anything similar. Seems like in the 2008-2012 years every other thread began with "Another responsible gun owner..." Heh.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Voting altruistically against your own self-interest can laudable and pro-social.

Right. There's a difference between voting for policies that will advantage your fellow citizens at your own expense, and voting for something that'll hurt you when you think you'll actually benefit from it.

In fairness I did say I agreed with him in the specific application of that one statement.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And this is another issue. You can't disagree with anything if somebody somewhere disagreed with an exaggerated or strawman version of it.

"Oh you don't like X. Oh then you simply have to be one of those people who think X is (insert commonly used exaggerated version of X here.)"
"No. I know what X really is and I don't like X."
"Does not compute!"

 

[carlitos]

"I have noticed a certain breaking down of rational discourse. Again this is partly due to many of our more thoughtful members leaving.


^^^ that sure does sound like "bemoaning" to me.

I thought that Belz... was being specific that the breakdown was outside of politics, so I don't know what that has to do with left-leaning-ness.

........, in politics it might not show too much, but in other sections of the forum I have noticed a certain breaking down of rational discourse. Again this is partly due to many of our more thoughtful members leaving.

 

[kellyb]

Right. There's a difference between voting for policies that will advantage your fellow citizens at your own expense, and voting for something that'll hurt you when you think you'll actually benefit from it.

I seems like it might be tied up in how a lot of these people are Christians who give 10% of their income to pay the mortgage on their pastor's McMansion, believing it's really an "investment" and god will make it up to them somewhere down the line. Also there's the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" mentality so many in the working/middle class have.