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Run your car on metal?

Bikewer

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Sep 12, 2003
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This week's New Scientist has a cover article on the possible of running an internal combustion engine on metal particles.

Full article requires subscription:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825221.100.html

I skimmed the article; in essence, finely ground (nano-size) metal particles can react strongly in the proper environment, and produce as much as ten times the energy of gasoline. Further benifits include little or no pollution, and the fact that the metalic particles can effectively be re-used.

Problems involve keeping the particles free of oxidation, which inhibits the burning process, and delivering the finely-particulate particles to the combustion chamber. The authors forsee a sort of pre-ignition chamber involved in an otherwise conventional-looking 4-cycle engine.
Interesting.
 
... and the fact that the metalic particles can effectively be re-used....
Re used? As in converted back to metal after burning? I suppose this means the by-products would have to be kept onboard, and then returned for recycling?

That makes it sound more like an energy storage/transfer medium than a *fuel*.

Still it might beat hydrogen or batteries for storage density.

Who knows if the technical problems can be economicaly solved.

Dave
 
Isn't metal reduced to nanometre sized particles highly reactive to the environment? I mean, won't the stuff rapidly oxidize while sitting in a storage tank waiting to get used? Also, some sort of fluidization process will have to be implemented in order to move the stuff around -- like from your fuel tank to the engine. And won't it take up a much larger volume after combustion? Who's going to reduce it back to pure metal? And at what cost in energy?
 
Slightly off topic but just to register my problem (maybe lack of understanding) with Hydrogen fuel cell technology.

We are told that its a great source of energy and that the main problem is the danger of transporting hydrogen in vehicles (i.e. explosions).

If that is the real problem then it could be solved by fuel cell energy stations and electric-powered cars. Since no-one is apparently proposing such a solution I am not convinced that this is anything other than the usual 'alternative energy' bulls****. Comments...?
 
For those considering suicide by sucking CO from the tailpipe, maybe instead, the depressed party will gain revitalized health in getting iron-rich blood instead. :)
 
Slightly off topic but just to register my problem (maybe lack of understanding) with Hydrogen fuel cell technology.

We are told that its a great source of energy and that the main problem is the danger of transporting hydrogen in vehicles (i.e. explosions).

If that is the real problem then it could be solved by fuel cell energy stations and electric-powered cars. Since no-one is apparently proposing such a solution I am not convinced that this is anything other than the usual 'alternative energy' bulls****. Comments...?

The bolded is why. Unless you want to sit at the hydrogen powered electric charging "gas station" for seven+ hours while your batteries charge, only to get about 50-100miles from each charge, then you'll want to carry the hydrogen with you. A hydrogen fuel-up would take 10 min. tops. Maybe down to the same speed gas is loaded with better technology.

I wonder why more work isn't being done on high speed flywheels to store energy for cars?
 
Slightly off topic but just to register my problem (maybe lack of understanding) with Hydrogen fuel cell technology.

We are told that its a great source of energy and that the main problem is the danger of transporting hydrogen in vehicles (i.e. explosions).

If that is the real problem then it could be solved by fuel cell energy stations and electric-powered cars. Since no-one is apparently proposing such a solution I am not convinced that this is anything other than the usual 'alternative energy' bulls****. Comments...?
Hydrogen fuel cells are not a source of energy. They are a fairly efficient means of changing energy stored in one form to another more easily usable form. The hydrogen economy idea, I think sees hydrogen as an energy vector, simply a means to store energy and move it around to where it is needed with the aim of creating a carbon neutral energy cycle. The use of hydrogen fuel cells is one way to utilise the stored energy.

I don't think the explosion issue is really an issue considering that people are quite happy enough to refuel and carry petrol around with them. I think the bigger problem with carrying hydrogen around with you in a car is one of energy density. Storing hydrogen as a gas runs into the problem of low volumetric (energy density by volume including the container) and gravitational energy density (energy density by weight including the container) when compared to something like petrol, and even methanol. Storing it as a liquid fares better on the gravitational density scale but has the added problem that it needs to be cryogenically frozen. That is why the current hydrogen fueling stations require all sorts of protective clothing and training to use. Storing hydrogen in a metal hydride is really not applicable for transport due to its extremely low gravitational energy density, and the tech that perhaps shows most promise is storing it using carbon nanotubes but last I looked no one was sure that was actually as good as the initial results made out.

There is also the problem of hydrogen embrittlement, which causes deterioration of metal containers that hydrogen is stored in.

If you don't carry hydrogen around with you and you still want a similar refueling experience to a petrol fuelled car, you have to produce it as required by reforming it on board the vehicle. And this raises the question of how you produce your hydrogen in the first place. Whilst it is true that a fuel cell running on O2 and H2 will produce water as its exhaust, the production of hydrogen is rarely that clean. If you reform a hydrocarbon you end up producing significant quantities of CO2, so you are essentially just moving the problem to a different place in the chain. The production of hydrogen is I think the main stumbling block for the hydrogen economy. I don't thnk that at the moment there is a reliable and efficient way of making hydrogen cleanly.

So it might look like I am on a bit of a downer where fuel cell tech is concerned. But thats not really true. Is it a cure all? Not at this time and possibly not ever. I think it has the potential to be very useful, I just think that like any tech that promises much, there are always complications to be overcome under the surface. There is work going on to develop composite cylinders to store hydrogen to lessen the weight burden and to allow the storage pressures to be increased, there is the work looking in to the carbon nanotube tech which if eventually successful would free up the storage and transportation of hydrogen immensely. It might be that H2 fuel cell powered private cars won't happen for a long time, and that the first truly mainstream use of the tech will be elsewhere, perhaps in distributed generation and combined heat and power systems, it might also turn out that the best place for the tech in the transportation industry could be in public transport where refueling difficulties will not be as pronounced owing to the the use of centrally located refueling stations. It could be that they will be used as auxilliary power supplies for passenger aircraft. Or possibly the idea will be totally dropped (I don't think it will but who knows what will happen eh?). Of cousre one mustn't forget the other types of fuel cell that also have potentially good applications (MW scale electricity generation, laptop batteries and so on.) I think it is a bit soon to just write it off as "alternative energy bull" just yet.
 
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fsol and skepticj,

Thanks for the info. I was not intending to write-off a hydrogen fuelled world - I just want to understand the apparent contradictions.

I can appreciate that no-one wants to hang around a fuel station for several hours but if hydrogen is so clean, efficient etc... why can't we use it to produce electricity (e.g. in power stations) that is subsequently piped to our homes (in the normal way) to (for example) charge our cars overnight?

Whenever I read about this technology I am informed that the problems are largely concerned with localisation of the power source (to cars). In seems that, in reality, the problems are the same old problems with any energy source - those hydrocarbons always sneak in - and its expensive to produce.

So - it is b******t - it might be a viable source but its no 'cleaner' than the current practice - is that fair?
 
So - it is b******t - it might be a viable source but its no 'cleaner' than the current practice - is that fair?
As long as it requires fossil fuels to produce, that's fair.

It is possible to generate hydrogen from biodiesel just as easily as fossil fuels; but then you have the problem of efficiency -- ie. it's more efficient to simply use the biodiesel directly, particularly since pollution is not an issue with biodiesel the way it is with fossil fuels.

Unless someone develops a way to efficiently biogenerate hydrogen on a commercial scale, it's a dead-end technology.
 
Unless someone develops a way to efficiently biogenerate hydrogen on a commercial scale, it's a dead-end technology.

And that's exactly what's being worked on. Genetically engineered microorganisms that split water into oxygen and hydrogen are being worked on. Grow them in ponds, lakes etc.
 
[joke derail]
You people are such curmudgeons.

How do you think my titanium superpowers came to be? This new idea for an engine is technology derived from my spine. The process was far improved over that pansy Wolverine's adamantiom crap.

Now stand aside, mortals. I have cancer woos to beat down.
[/joke derail]

PS, Iamme's comment in this thread is one for the books on idiocy.
 
The bolded is why. Unless you want to sit at the hydrogen powered electric charging "gas station" for seven+ hours while your batteries charge, only to get about 50-100miles from each charge, then you'll want to carry the hydrogen with you. A hydrogen fuel-up would take 10 min. tops. Maybe down to the same speed gas is loaded with better technology.

I remember a discussion on this about fifteen years ago. The way to do it is not to recharge the battery but replace it.

I wonder why more work isn't being done on high speed flywheels to store energy for cars?

That wouldn't be much fun in an accident.
 

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