Conservative Skeptics?

[bagtaggar]

Keep in mind there are 270 million of us.

There are over a billion Chinese.

 

[bagtaggar]

Don't forget the low (compared to some european countries) standard of living.

Right.

British men never take advantage of little Romanian boys sold by their fathers into sexual slavery, because their farming village is flooded and their source of income destroyed.

The United States has been experiencing a steady decline in violent crime over the past decade.

Quite the opposite is true for western Europe.

Ask the Eastern Bloc folks how they feel about their "Standard of Living".

The Polish are very greatful for their American allies. I would know, my relatives tell me every day.

 

[Batman Jr.]

United States

GDP - per capita: $40,100
GDP - real growth rate: 4.4%
Population below poverty line: 12%
Unemployment rate: 5.5%

France

GDP - per capita: $28,700
GDP - real growth rate: 2.1%
Population below poverty line: 6.5%
Unemployment rate: 10.1%

Germany

GDP - per capita: $28,700
GDP - real growth rate: 1.7%
Population below poverty line: NA
Unemployment rate: 10.6%

China

GDP - per capita: $5,600
GDP - real growth rate: 9.1%
Population below poverty line: 10%
Unemployment rate: 20%

So by which standard are we failing and by which are we succeeding.

I'm sorry, but this is not how you do an economic analysis. You compare the statistics to previous statistics in the same country. You're committing the fallacy of incorrect cause in that all of the differences between the countries you cite aren't necessarily ascribable to current market regulations.

 

[bagtaggar]

Here you go:

 

[Tony]

Right.

British men never take advantage of little Romanian boys sold by their fathers into sexual slavery, because their farming village is flooded and their source of income destroyed.

The United States has been experiencing a steady decline in violent crime over the past decade.

Quite the opposite is true for western Europe.

Ask the Eastern Bloc folks how they feel about their "Standard of Living".

The Polish are very greatful for their American allies. I would know, my relatives tell me every day.

I'm not even going to try to make sense of this.

 

[bagtaggar]

Ok. You win I guess.

 

[Batman Jr.]

Here you go:

And all the while, poverty rates increased. So did the deficit.

 

[bagtaggar]

They also tend to oscillate, interestingly enough. Here are poverty rates in the United States over a period of about 50 years:

Historical Poverty Tables

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov9.html

Except for the last two, it seems it has been bobbing up and down between 11% and 15%. Now, has it been increasing because of president Bush, or because the economy ebbs and flows regardless of the administration?

 

[Tony]

Ok. You win I guess.

Well, yeah I do. It is a conclusive fact that countries like Finland and Norway have a higher standard of living than the US.

 

[Batman Jr.]

They also tend to oscillate, interestingly enough. Here are poverty rates in the United States over a period of about 50 years:

Historical Poverty Tables

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov9.html

Except for the last two, it seems it has been bobbing up and down between 11% and 15%. Now, has it been increasing because of president Bush, or because the economy ebbs and flows regardless of the administration?

Simply because it oscillates doesn't mean it has nothing to do with economic policy. I'd like you to show me the evidence that poverty levels are unrelated to policy.

 

[bagtaggar]

The point was your statement was pointless. There are a great many European countries that have pathetic standards of living compared to the US (Romania an example).

Finland and Norway also have substantially smaller populations, and don't have the added burden of superpower status. For the amount of responsibilities this nation has internationally, it's doing pretty damn well.

 

[bagtaggar]

Simply because it oscillates doesn't mean it has nothing to do with economic policy. I'd like you to show me the evidence that poverty levels are unrelated to policy.

They are related. But so what? There are a million other factors that effect poverty in this nation, and the oscillation shows that a great many of them aren't related to administrations (we haven't been oscillating Republican/Democrat forever, you know).

 

[Batman Jr.]

Finland and Norway also have substantially smaller populations, and don't have the added burden of superpower status. For the amount of responsibilities this nation has internationally, it's doing pretty damn well.

It's interesting how you're so eager to compare countries when the juxtapositions fit your political proclivities but scoff at a comparison that would suggest the superiority of views opposed to yours.

 

[Batman Jr.]

They are related. But so what? There are a million other factors that effect poverty in this nation, and the oscillation shows that a great many of them aren't related to administrations (we haven't been oscillating Republican/Democrat forever, you know).

If it is not Bush's policies, then what do you hypothesize is causing the increase in poverty?

 

[Tony]

The point was your statement was pointless. There are a great many European countries that have pathetic standards of living compared to the US (Romania an example).

More non-sense.

Finland and Norway also have substantially smaller populations,

And that matters...why?

Under this reasoning, since our population has always been rising, living standards in the US should have been declining steadily throughout our history.

and don't have the added burden of superpower status

That's a weak excuse.

For the amount of responsibilities this nation has internationally, it's doing pretty damn well.

The only responsibilty this government has it to the american people.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

My favorite are liberals who actively attack Creationists and then turn around and check their horoscopes.

Darn. Late to this party. But I couldn't help but notice that you didn't even get all the way through your first post without dragging out the strawmen.

Sure, liberals are all star chart consulting, tree hugging, tofu eating hippies. Every man, woman and child among them.

Right. Whatever. Pfeh.

 

[bagtaggar]

If it is not Bush's policies, then what do you hypothesize is causing the increase in poverty?

Use your imagination. Changing job markets, corporate mergers, agricultural failure, I don't know. There are a lot of things that come and go.

I didn't say Bush had no influence on the poverty rate, only that it's not the only factor. An administration can curb or inflame the situation, not create it.

The only responsibilty this government has it to the american people.

And to secure those interests, it has to maintain hegemony.

Had a Starbuck's coffee lately?

Drove a car?

We do what we have to to maintain those things.

At one time I believe Europe was the home of the greatest sources of Imperialism. Imperialist nations were operating in their own self interest.

Right now it is in their interest to stand against the United States on this War.

Give it another 50 years and we'll see how "moral" and "peaceful" European nations will be, once their needs and means of acquiring said needs change.

 

[bagtaggar]

Sure, liberals are all star chart consulting, tree hugging, tofu eating hippies. Every man, woman and child among them.

No, just the college students.

 

[bagtaggar]

Well, I'm going to bed.

Thanks everyone for the welcome, and I'll be back tommorow to ruffle some feathers.

 

[Tony]

And to secure those interests, it has to maintain hegemony.

I'd like to see evidence of that.

Had a Starbuck's coffee lately?

No.

Drove a car?

Unfortunately, yes.

We do what we have to to maintain those things.

Correction. The government does what it has to do to protect the business interests and current business models of those companies dealing in those things.

At one time I believe Europe was the home of the greatest sources of Imperialism. Imperialist nations were operating in their own self interest.

Or in the self interests of their monarchs and aristocrats.

Right now it is in their interest to stand against the United States on this War.

It's in the US interests to be against this war as well. This war has been a tremendous waste of money, lives, and American soft power. And for what? So Iraq can have a fundy islamic government.

Give it another 50 years and we'll see how "moral" and "peaceful" European nations will be, once their needs and means of acquiring said needs change.

LOL.

Lets just forget the fact that the most prosperous and free period in European history has been during the post imperial era. Imperialism is a good way to enrich the monarchs and aristocracy, but it's been a pretty crappy way to improve the lot of society as a whole.