TERFs crash London Pride

What the word "woman" means has legal implications.

Thus, it is now possible to claim that saying "Women Don't Have Penises" is a transphobic hate crime. The police will take your complaint seriously.

In the US, part of the esoteric language called "legalese" is a matter of long, incredibly precise and pedantic definitions of words.

I can't really comment on your UK laws. Hate speech is perfectly legal in the US, and even tho I'm a fringy leftwinger, I like it staying that way, because...the slippery is obviously real. Freedom of speech really is important, even if it means lots of hate gets spewed. No longterm good comes of criminalizing WrongThink.
 
It's not clear what definition of gender you are using here. It seems you may be talking about sex when you talk about a "particular gender".

What comprises a particular gender? How is it defined?

As a purely subjective experience, the internal experience of gender is real in the same way that false memories are real. The phenomenon of feeling that we have been born in the wrong sex body can be questioned in the same way that false memories can be questioned.

I could, on the basis of what my mind tells me, be a victim of organised satanic abuse. My feelings are real. But they may not reflect factual reality.

Feelings aren't facts.
Feelings can be facts. But you haven't really answered what I asked you. Given we both agree gender exists why can't we or why should we not use it as a classification system?
 
What the word "woman" means has legal implications.

Thus, it is now possible to claim that saying "Women Don't Have Penises" is a transphobic hate crime. The police will take your complaint seriously.
Yes it does, and it means different things in different legislation and what it has meant in the past has also changed.

The definition of woman is whatever society decides it is either by way of legal definitions or usage.

In some places in science it may have a particular definition but that doesn't mean society has to use it that way in other places.
 
Now I'm wondering if rather a lot of this whole debate boils down to different perspectives which are the result of hate speech laws, or a lack thereof.

In the US, the dictionary definitions of words can change like the wind, and it's more of a curiosity than a thing which actually matters. It looks to me like the hate speech laws are really, truly bad for freedom of thought.
 
What the word "woman" means has legal implications.

Thus, it is now possible to claim that saying "Women Don't Have Penises" is a transphobic hate crime. The police will take your complaint seriously.
Can you point me to the prosecutions? (And as an aside I'm a long time on the record that I think "hate speech" is too widely defined in our legislation and I opposed the laws as they were being proposed.)
 
Now I'm wondering if rather a lot of this whole debate boils down to different perspectives which are the result of hate speech laws, or a lack thereof.

In the US, the dictionary definitions of words can change like the wind, and it's more of a curiosity than a thing which actually matters. It looks to me like the hate speech laws are really, truly bad for freedom of thought.
Most of the reports you hear about are widely overblown and hysterical, I don't think we've got the balance right at the moment but even with the too wide definition we have I don't believe one would be prosecuted for what Jane said.
 
The definition of woman is whatever society decides it is either by way of legal definitions or usage.

Most words don't have just one definition. I see no reason for one definition to have to be "the" definition everyone uses all the time.

Some controversial words have multiple uses, too, where one group uses it in one way and another group uses it in an almost opposite way, and in the case of a couple of words, certain groups are socially "forbidden" from using the word at all.
 
Most of the reports you hear about are widely overblown and hysterical, I don't think we've got the balance right at the moment but even with the too wide definition we have I don't believe one would be prosecuted for what Jane said.

Just being "investigated" sounds like quite a threat, too, tho.

The whole deal creeps me out. But I've grown up where "the first amendment" is universally considered the most sacred right "we all" have.
 
For example, I often have the feeling that performing poorly at a task will reflect badly not only on me but reinforce negative stereotypes about women. And I don't want that to happen because I feel protective of the whole general class of women as a part of it. I think that's extremely common example of female gender identity among women.

When I see an awesome woman in tech fields or sci-fi acting in a great role I get excited because I love to see the, idk, overton window of stuff-women-are-doing, pushed in that direction. I identify with them. As women. I feel like it's one of my teams.

It's different from when I see someone doing great that isn't on one of my 'identity' teams. Seeing them do well is like watching acrobats perform. I'm like 'wow nice one that's some serious core strength' but I'm not like... YES! YOU GO! OMG I AM ROOTING FOR YOU!

This may be a clumsy approach but 'you haven't shown that most people actually have gender identities' is a left field one for me :/

That's rather an argument against you having a feminine gender identity. Remember that gender is the social and cultural differences considered appropriate for one's sex in a given society. In our society, for example, it's considered that women don't belong in tech fields so if you were to have a feminine gender identity you'd be opposed to women entering tech fields or the overton window of stuff-women-are-doing being shifted. If you have a problem with the restrictive social/cultural notions applied to what women should/shouldn't do then you're against gender.
 
That's rather an argument against you having a feminine gender identity. Remember that gender is the social and cultural differences considered appropriate for one's sex in a given society. In our society, for example, it's considered that women don't belong in tech fields so if you were to have a feminine gender identity you'd be opposed to women entering tech fields or the overton window of stuff-women-are-doing being shifted. If you have a problem with the restrictive social/cultural notions applied to what women should/shouldn't do then you're against gender.

No. That is a wild misinterpretation. That's like saying you're not a Mets fan if you're excited about the idea of seeing the Mets win.

Look, I understand that this is a squishy concept but try to come at it from a biologist's point of view; they so often run into problems using characteristics define types of animals in the way that people here are getting bunched up about defining human genders. "Greeblies are small sedentary six limbed omnivores, except for the blue greebly, which is an obligate carnivore, and the green greebly, which has four limbs and two pseudopods, and ten other greeblies which we swear are greeblies though you wouldn't think so by looking at them, and also bear in mind the Spotted Greebly isn't actually a greebly but rather a type of spondulie" and they're still figuring out how to actually define the clade
 
No. That is a wild misinterpretation. That's like saying you're not a Mets fan if you're excited about the idea of seeing the Mets win.

No, it's like saying that if there was a social expectation that the Mets should lose, and if you're excited about the idea of seeing the Mets win, then you don't identify with the social expectation that they should lose. How is this not obvious?

The mere fact that it is notable in the first place that someone of a certain sex occupies a certain social position shows that this position is gendered. For someone of that sex to occupy that position (or for someone else to cheer it on) is an act of gender non-conformity, exactly the opposite of an act of gender identity.

Look, I understand that this is a squishy concept but try to come at it from a biologist's point of view; they so often run into problems using characteristics define types of animals in the way that people here are getting bunched up about defining human genders. "Greeblies are small sedentary six limbed omnivores, except for the blue greebly, which is an obligate carnivore, and the green greebly, which has four limbs and two pseudopods, and ten other greeblies which we swear are greeblies though you wouldn't think so by looking at them, and also bear in mind the Spotted Greebly isn't actually a greebly but rather a type of spondulie" and they're still figuring out how to actually define the clade

Do you understand the difference between sex and gender?
 
I'm just saying that gender identity is not the same thing as gender stereotype.

You mean sex stereotype, right? But indeed, gender identity is to identify as/with a certain gender. In the case of the feminine gender that would be things like being paid less for the same work, wearing make-up, not entering tech fields, having long hair, etc etc. If you don't identify with that then whatever it is you're identifying as, it ain't the feminine gender. And if you don't identify with the oppposite of all that then you're not identifying as the masculine gender either. In which case you wouldn't have a gender identity since those happen to be the only two we have in this society.

It makes zero sense that you'd say you identify as a gender and then give as an example your cherishing of people breaking down said gender.
 
But indeed, gender identity is to identify as/with a certain gender. In the case of the feminine gender that would be things like being paid less for the same work, wearing make-up, not entering tech fields, having long hair, etc etc. If you don't identify with that then whatever it is you're identifying as, it ain't the feminine gender.

For me at this point, it's mostly non-inclusion in whatever's going on in dude nation, or at least having to fight like hell to stake out some space in whatever turf is being manned-up.

http://time.com/money/4450406/men-interrupt-talk-more/

Study after study has shown that women are interrupted (by both genders) more than men; that men speak significantly more in meetings than women do (one study found they account for 75% of conversation); that even when women speak less they are perceived to have spoken more; and that male execs who talk more than their peers are viewed to be more competent, while female execs are viewed as less competent.
 
There are people who identify with and categorize "femininity" or "feminine identity" with " things like being paid less for the same work, wearing make-up, not entering tech fields, having long hair, etc etc. "

?

Certainly makeup and long hair fit in there
 
That's rather an argument against you having a feminine gender identity. Remember that gender is the social and cultural differences considered appropriate for one's sex in a given society.


Well, no. People have gotten too hung up on this "gender is a cultural phenomenon" canard, and failed to realize how incorrect it is as such gross oversimplifications typically are. Specifically people are conflating two related but separate phenomena, gender identity and gender expression.

Gender expression is the cultural component, where society decides what appearances, roles, and behaviour patterns are "appropriate" or "desirable" for a given gender. This can vary widely from culture to culture, and is only partially based on biological differences or imperatives. When people say "gender is a social construct", what they are really talking about is expression, how that expression is stereotyped, and those stereotypes enforced by the particular culture they exist in.

Gender identity, by contrast, is innate to the individual. It is the individual's internal body image, how the mental/neurological image of their own body matches up with their actual physical sex. In cis-gendered people there is no significant difference between their internal body image and their physical sex, so the concept of gender identity separate from physical sex is alien to them. However, in transpeople, there is a fundamental dichotomy between how the individual perceives themselves, and how their body is developed.

The body image/body type dichotomy is the origin of Gender Dysphoria Disorder (GDD), and there is a growing body of evidence that this is fixed at a very young age, prior to puberty. This is uninfluenced by cultural or other social influences, and does not seem to change at all from childhood to adulthood aside from the comparatively minor changes that accompany puberty.

Interestingly, as an aside, transgenderism is not the only conflict between internal body image and the actual physical body, there are a number of others, some of which appear to be developmental, and others the result of neurological trauma, some of which are permanent, some transitory; eg Body Integrity Identity Disorder, Alien Hand Syndrome, and Depersonalization Disorder.

Where the confusion comes in is when there is a the conflict between identity and culturally-enforced expression. In some people, their expression of their body image conflicts with cultural norms of "masculinity" and "femininity". This can be seen as an aggregating factor for GDD, which exacerbates the identity issues, but does not directly cause them. All societies have some concept of "masculine" and "feminine" expressions that vary widely both in their construction and their enforcement.

So we see biological females with culturally-defined "masculine" expressions and biological males with "feminine" expressions. When gender expressions for cis-gendered individuals do not match cultural norms, they are often stereotyped as expressions of homosexuality, and are often linked to homosexuality -- the stereotype of the "butch" lesbian and the "effeminate" gay man -- but are not exclusively tied to it, as we see with the existence of heterosexual "tomboy" females and "sensitive" males.

Further problems are caused when the cultural enforcement of such norms are based on a strict binary, when research increasingly indicates that gender identity exists on a spectrum between the two binary extremes.

So this combination of identity and cultural enforcement of expression can lead to confusion both in transgendered people, and non-conforming cis-gendered people, which can end up forcing people into a particular cultural pigeonhole, stereotyping them as gay or lesbian or some sort of deviant identity when they are simply non-conforming with regard to cultural norms. It's also possible that many of those stereotyped as "butch" lesbians or "effeminate" gay men may also be gender non-binary as well, but have not had the understanding of what that identity means.

Which brings up another factor contributing to identity confusion, the lack of referents. The individual lacks the necessary referents to understand the difference between their body image and their physical sex, and what that means for their identity, and how it affects their expression. This is particularly common for younger people in cultures or sub-cultures where expression and identity are strictly enforced, and the existence of non-conforming individuals is strictly repressed. Christian and Islamic fundamentalist cultures are the obvious examples here. (That is my own personal experience, growing up in a profoundly religious family and sub-culture.)

So this socially-created confusion between expression and identity is the reason why transgendered people, especially pre-adolescent children, are required by medical standards of practice to undergo extensive counseling and therapy before they can even be considered for transitioning their physical sex to match their internal body image. It is also the reason that many consider the recent upsurge in those identifying as some form of transgendered, binary or non-binary, to be simply trendy bandwagon-hopping. It is a "trend" only insofar as many more people now have the referents and information necessary to begin exploring their own identity and expression in ways that were repressed or prohibited in the past. It will take more time and more research in order to decouple identity from expression, lessen this confusion,1 and enable to people to achieve a better understanding of their own individual identities and expression.

One thing that continues to be a problem for many transgendered individuals is that the medical standard of care historically enforced a strictly binary view of gender identity in line with cultural norms of expression, and continues to do so to a slightly lessened extent. Hopefully, as research continues, this will be corrected as well, and a greater understanding and acceptance of the range of gender identity will result.
 
What would you add to or take away from this description of the website's purpose to make it an "unbiased" source of information?

I don't care. They've laid their cards on the table, so at least their bias is plain for all to seen.

Here's a video of a transman Alex Bertie's head asploding while grappling with the same website:



Here is a critical response to Alex's meltdown:


Pay me for my time and I'll watch them, otherwise I ain't interested.
 
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You mean sex stereotype, right? But indeed, gender identity is to identify as/with a certain gender. In the case of the feminine gender that would be things like being paid less for the same work, wearing make-up, not entering tech fields, having long hair, etc etc. If you don't identify with that then whatever it is you're identifying as, it ain't the feminine gender. And if you don't identify with the oppposite of all that then you're not identifying as the masculine gender either. In which case you wouldn't have a gender identity since those happen to be the only two we have in this society.

It makes zero sense that you'd say you identify as a gender and then give as an example your cherishing of people breaking down said gender.

You appear to be arguing that any woman fighting for equality is not really a woman.

I think you must be very confused
 
Can you point me to the prosecutions? (And as an aside I'm a long time on the record that I think "hate speech" is too widely defined in our legislation and I opposed the laws as they were being proposed.)

No prosecutions yet, as far as I know, though people have been forced out of their jobs.

Merseyside Police are making ‘enquiries’ into a trans-sceptical group that distributed stickers saying ‘Women don’t have penises’.

Posey Parker was investigated by Wiltshire police for correctly reporting that Susie Green, CEO of transgender advocate group, Mermaids, took her sixteen year old son to Thailand to be castrated. He thus became youngest person in the world to undergo transgender surgery.
 

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