Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

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Ziggurat said:
That wasn't known prior to the meeting.



They didn't go to the campaign with the dirt. Hell, the dirt may not even exist (one would think Hillary supporters would be pushing that fact a little harder, but life is ironic). As far as we can tell, the Russians showed up to the meeting empty handed.
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You REALLY don't know that. Unless of course you believe the participants who have been lying about the meeting.
 
plague311 said:
I generally love that stuff, this is barely that. It's completely circular, as someone said before. It's revolving around Bob making up completely ******** scenarios and people actually giving them any amount of worthwhile consideration. The insane drivel about ex lovers, and weird ass scenarios has nothing to do with this thread at all and should be moved to either CT or AAH.
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I'm with you on that. Let's see how absurd a scenario I can concoct. :rolleyes:
 
acbytesla said:
Don Jr. certainly did and if Manafort and Kushner actually knew the purpose of the meeting they did too.
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I'm not seeing what core difference it makes exactly when Team Trump discovered what the Russians were expecting in return, be it before the meeting or during the meeting? The meeting to get the info was equally illegal either way.
 
plague311 said:
I generally love that stuff, this is barely that. It's completely circular, as someone said before. It's revolving around Bob making up completely ******** scenarios and people actually giving them any amount of worthwhile consideration. The insane drivel about ex lovers, and weird ass scenarios has nothing to do with this thread at all and should be moved to either CT or AAH.
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Yes, the real issue is that we simply don't want foreign nationals contributing to campaigns, because some of them might not have the best interests of the country in mind. Nonetheless, foreign nationals can find ways to contribute to campaigns anonymously. But in that case, all they are receiving in return is the satisfaction of contributing to the election effort. If, however, a foreign national wants the campaign (and no one else) to know about the contribution, that's prima facie evidence that they want some sort of recognition or consideration in return, perhaps in the future, even if it's just an opportunity to make a pitch that they otherwise wouldn't have. If DJTJ, Manafort and Kushner put together didn't know that what they were doing was wrong, then maybe they can be indicted for criminal stupidity.
 
acbytesla said:
You REALLY don't know that. Unless of course you believe the participants who have been lying about the meeting.
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Of course they could've shown up empty-handed. It's not like they'd already broke into the DNC and Podesta's gmail account. Respectively, that was probably Seth Rich (who Clinton might have assassinated) and some 400 pound hacker living in his mother's basement. Occam's Razor.

Don Jr. could have said that he ran afoul of the whole "foreign national law thingy" because if Clinton had committed criminal wrong-doing, he wanted to bring it to light, not just to help his father win but to act as a patriotic American concerned about national security. He acted hastily to protect America from disaster. Unfortunately, they confected a lie about the purpose of the meeting.
 
kellyb said:
I'm not seeing what core difference it makes exactly when Team Trump discovered what the Russians were expecting in return, be it before the meeting or during the meeting? The meeting to get the info was equally illegal either way.
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No, that part made no difference. What I was saying was if Manafort and Kushner didn't know what the meeting was about preceding the meeting then they could argue ignorance.
 
Cain said:
Of course they could've shown up empty-handed. It's not like they'd already broke into the DNC and Podesta's gmail account. Respectively, that was probably Seth Rich (who Clinton might have assassinated) and some 400 pound hacker living in his mother's basement. Occam's Razor.

Don Jr. could have said that he ran afoul of the whole "foreign national law thingy" because if Clinton had committed criminal wrong-doing, he wanted to bring it to light, not just to help his father win but to act as a patriotic American concerned about national security. He acted hastily to protect America from disaster. Unfortunately, they confected a lie about the purpose of the meeting.
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Yeah sure.
 
acbytesla said:
You REALLY don't know that. Unless of course you believe the participants who have been lying about the meeting.
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That is the only publicly available information. If you want to believe that they're lying, go ahead, but then you aren't left with information that contradicts them, you're left with no information at all. And you can't support an accusation of criminal activity based on no information.
 
Ziggurat said:
That is the only publicly available information. If you want to believe that they're lying, go ahead, but then you aren't left with information that contradicts them, you're left with no information at all. And you can't support an accusation of criminal activity based on no information.
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Why wouldn't you believe they're probably lying? Kushner and Don Jr both lied to Congress about this meeting which is a felony. Trunp Sr. concocted a fallacious statement about the meeting.

I'm saying and I i don't believe unfairly that there is little reason, for anyone to believe that we now have the whole truth just because these people who lied before are saying they have told us everything.
 
acbytesla said:
Why wouldn't you believe they're probably lying? Kushner and Don Jr both lied to Congress about this meeting which is a felony. Trunp Sr. concocted a fallacious statement about the meeting.

I'm saying and I i don't believe unfairly that there is little reason, for anyone to believe that we now have the whole truth just because these people who lied before are saying they have told us everything.
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Sure, they could still be lying (although I doubt the emails are forged). But that doesn't suffice. Even if we could magically know with 100% certainty that they are lying about something, that doesn't tell us what the truth is.
 
acbytesla said:
Why wouldn't you believe they're probably lying? Kushner and Don Jr both lied to Congress about this meeting which is a felony. Trunp Sr. concocted a fallacious statement about the meeting.

I'm saying and I i don't believe unfairly that there is little reason, for anyone to believe that we now have the whole truth just because these people who lied before are saying they have told us everything.
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Zigs post doesn't say you shouldn't believe they are not lying. However, once you remove the liars, you don't have any additional piece of evidence on what was said at the meeting.
 
kellyb said:
Touché. :)

Although I doubt the The Crown prosecutor of Russia is in the for-profit dirt-gathering business on the open market.
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least. But the problem with selling secrets on the open market is that in order to market the material, you must give potential consumers a taste of said secrets, so they aren't so secret anymore.

That there is no one with the title of "Crown prosecutor" should have raised questions right off the bat.

Trump is such a known liar that even his "confession" - incriminating his son - cannot be taken at face value. I don't think he tells the same lie all the time - he changes it up so that nothing can be said with any degree of certainty. Like, all of a sudden he's got Giuliani out there claiming Trump never discussed Michael Flynn with Comey. Forget saying that Comey lied about the substance of the conversation; the new claim is that the conversation never took place. The mind reels. My mind, anyway. The same sort of fog of Trump has enveloped the Trump Tower meeting - next up maybe Sr. will pivot to claiming the meeting never happened at all. It would not be out of character.
 
Ziggurat said:
Sure, they could still be lying. (although I doubt the emails are forged). But that doesn't suffice. Even if we could magically know with 100% certainty that they are lying about something, that doesn't tell us what the truth is.
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Sure, they could still be lying? You lie like this group, all of whom have every reason to lie, it becomes the prudent action to doubt their veracity.

I DONT doubt the emails, but the emails tell us very little other than that they were conspiring with the the Russians. What we don't know is the depth and breadth of the conspiracy.
 
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Trump Just Tweeted

"Just fired Agent Strzok, formerly of the FBI, was in charge of the Crooked Hillary Clinton sham investigation. It was a total fraud on the American public and should be properly redone!"

"Agent Peter Strzok was just fired from the FBI - finally. The list of bad players in the FBI & DOJ gets longer & longer. Based on the fact that Strzok was in charge of the Witch Hunt, will it be dropped? It is a total Hoax. No Collusion, No Obstruction - I just fight back!"
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Just Tweeted

"Just fired Agent Strzok, formerly of the FBI, was in charge of the Crooked Hillary Clinton sham investigation. It was a total fraud on the American public and should be properly redone!"

"Agent Peter Strzok was just fired from the FBI - finally. The list of bad players in the FBI & DOJ gets longer & longer. Based on the fact that Strzok was in charge of the Witch Hunt, will it be dropped? It is a total Hoax. No Collusion, No Obstruction - I just fight back!"
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Cool, he's "fighting back" by confessing to obstruction and denying it in the same tweet.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Just Tweeted

"Just fired Agent Strzok, formerly of the FBI, was in charge of the Crooked Hillary Clinton sham investigation. It was a total fraud on the American public and should be properly redone!"

"Agent Peter Strzok was just fired from the FBI - finally. The list of bad players in the FBI & DOJ gets longer & longer. Based on the fact that Strzok was in charge of the Witch Hunt, will it be dropped? It is a total Hoax. No Collusion, No Obstruction - I just fight back!"
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WilliamSeger said:
Cool, he's "fighting back" by confessing to obstruction and denying it in the same tweet.
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On what grounds did they fire Strzok? Seems like he probably can sue them.
 
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