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Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

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BobTheCoward said:
Then I will save them for minoosh.
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Bob, I lost the plot a long time ago. I thought the embarrassing part was supposed to be that the other candidate had a homosexual affair. But it doesn't change much - an individual can blab about all kind of things, whereas foreign nationals providing one side of a campaign with stolen inside information in order to influence an election is anywhere from not quite kosher to a flagrantly illegal conspiracy.

You can try to make it a freedom of speech issue and that might work. But it is the totality of circumstances that make me go "hmm," so trying to tease out one variable as you have been trying to do (sincerely, I think) is of limited utility. Maybe it was all good clean fun but they acted guilty as hell about it and that includes Trump Sr. telling multiple lies about the meeting. Maybe voters won't care; that's their prerogative, but Mueller was hired to investigate and that's what he's doing.
 
Minoosh said:
Bob, I lost the plot a long time ago. I thought the embarrassing part was supposed to be that the other candidate had a homosexual affair. But it doesn't change much - an individual can blab about all kind of things, whereas foreign nationals providing one side of a campaign with stolen inside information in order to influence an election is anywhere from not quite kosher to a flagrantly illegal conspiracy.

You can try to make it a freedom of speech issue and that might work. But it is the totality of circumstances that make me go "hmm," so trying to tease out one variable as you have been trying to do (sincerely, I think) is of limited utility. Maybe it was all good clean fun but they acted guilty as hell about it and that includes Trump Sr. telling multiple lies about the meeting. Maybe voters won't care; that's their prerogative, but Mueller was hired to investigate and that's what he's doing.
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Two things.

I bet Don Jr would definitely settle for terrible but not illegal. That is what I'm trying to tease out, also.

The email exchange before didn't say it was stolen.
 
acbytesla said:
That ISNT the point. They could hand them all kinds of legal documents, this would still constitute opposition research and a contribution from a foreign national and/or government.
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That is what I was trying to say.by "legal" I meant not in violation of campaign law.

I was telling Cain a position that was aligned with yours.
 
Cain said:
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that Jr. is guilty. Maybe Manafort and Kushner could argue they weren't sure what was supposed to happen in the meeting.
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I'm not sure how credible that would be, though, given that they were apparently both in a meeting days before the infamous one in order to discuss strategy in that meeting. Rudy Giuliani's the source on that one.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Two things.

I bet Don Jr would definitely settle for terrible but not illegal. That is what I'm trying to tease out, also.

The email exchange before didn't say it was stolen.
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He was told the Russian government was trying to help his father win, and that Russia had incriminating information on Hillary.

At least now the Trump administration seems to acknowledge that Russia attempting to sway U.S. elections is a bad thing.

I've forgotten, if I ever knew, what the dirt on Hillary supposedly was, but it had to do with her dealings with Russia.
 
theprestige said:
Why? By all accounts, that's exactly what happened. Do you have an account that says otherwise? I don't think I'm the one making fantasies here.
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By all accounts? You mean by the people who attended the meeting and have lied endlessly about it?

OK..:rolleyes:
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I'm not sure how credible that would be, though, given that they were apparently both in a meeting days before the infamous one in order to discuss strategy in that meeting. Rudy Giuliani's the source on that one.
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Agreed, but right now Manafort is arguing at trial that his employee is responsible for dozens of crimes.
 
BobTheCoward said:
It wouldn't matter what they think would happen if it is not possible for high level documents to be legal.
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Legal or illegal, who cares? How much would it matter if the documents did not even exist? If I tell you I want my ex-wife Heather killed and you agree to do it, but then find out that I'm a lunatic who doesn't even have an ex-wife, have you committed a crime? Well, yeah. Jr. was told this came from the Russian government. In the beginning his defenders said, "Look, he's a good kid." He was near forty goddamn years old.

Maybe their best argument is going to be that all campaigns run afoul of complicated election laws. Didn't Sanders and Clinton pay fines for violations? Jr.'s just a layperson, not a lawyer. Of course, Manafort should know better, and all of this talk about pre-planning meetings, and lies about the meeting (adoptions), and possible lies about a blocked number etc., suggests they knew what they were doing and this isn't some random, unfortunate sidewalk salsa.
 
acbytesla said:
That ISNT the point. They could hand them all kinds of legal documents, this would still constitute opposition research and a contribution from a foreign national and/or government.
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I apologize if this has already been covered, I admit I haven't read the whole thread, but do also consider the DNC and Clinton campaign guilty because of the Steele Dossier? The Steele Dossier fits your definition of "opposition research and a contribution from a foreign national and/or government" exactly.
 
Cain said:
Legal or illegal, who cares? How much would it matter if the documents did not even exist? If I tell you I want my ex-wife Heather killed and you agree to do it, but then find out that I'm a lunatic who doesn't even have an ex-wife, have you committed a crime? Well, yeah. Jr. was told this came from the Russian government. In the beginning his defenders said, "Look, he's a good kid." He was near forty goddamn years old.

Maybe their best argument is going to be that all campaigns run afoul of complicated election laws. Didn't Sanders and Clinton pay fines for violations? Jr.'s just a layperson, not a lawyer. Of course, Manafort should know better, and all of this talk about pre-planning meetings, and lies about the meeting (adoptions), and possible lies about a blocked number etc., suggests they knew what they were doing and this isn't some random, unfortunate sidewalk salsa.
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To clarify for the second time, the legal I meant was in compliance with election law. It is either possible for a foreign principal to provide a document of some sort, or it is not. I'm leaning towards not.

I mean, technically speaking, the sensitive russian documents could have been a collection of news articles from the Clinton impeachment. It doesn't take much for a government document to gain a classification status. But even trying to send those over would probably be illegal.
 
theprestige said:
Why? By all accounts, that's exactly what happened. Do you have an account that says otherwise? I don't think I'm the one making fantasies here.
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Cain said:
......Of course, Manafort should know better, and all of this talk about pre-planning meetings, and lies about the meeting (adoptions), and possible lies about a blocked number etc., suggests they knew what they were doing and this isn't some random, unfortunate sidewalk salsa.
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I find it kind of amusing that Prestige thinks we should believe that nothing came of this meeting simply because Don Jr, Jared and Don Sr said nothing came of it. As if the fact that all of them LIED about it and two went so far to commit felonies by lying to Congress about it is irrelevant and should be ignored.

Maybe it's just me, but I think their credibility on this ...........is a little suspect.
 
cmikes said:
I apologize if this has already been covered, I admit I haven't read the whole thread, but do also consider the DNC and Clinton campaign guilty because of the Steele Dossier? The Steele Dossier fits your definition of "opposition research and a contribution from a foreign national and/or government" exactly.
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No. There were multiple blind walls between the Clinton campaign and Steele and nothing was given away. Hardly a contribution
 
acbytesla said:
No. There were multiple blind walls between the Clinton campaign and Steele and nothing was given away. Hardly a contribution
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Looking at the law, it seems you can absolutely buy things from foreigners as long as it is market price.

Could the Trump campaign have planned to purchase the material?
 
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