Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

[acbytesla]

One defense they could proffer is that there exists sensitive russian documents from a Russian official that are legal to receive and they thought they were those.

So, take the ex lover example. If that case would not be illegal, then what if she told her embassy instead? And a person there wrote it down. And then the ambassador decided to give it. Those would be sensitive documents from an official. But is the former legal and the latter not?

In comedy, they call what you do as 'going over the top'. This is all nonsense and not even remotely close to reality.

This is about campaigns and contributions to campaigns, not this silly crap you keep raising.

 

[BobTheCoward]

In comedy, they call what you do as 'going over the top'. This is all nonsense and not even remotely close to reality.

This is about campaigns and contributions to campaigns, not this silly crap you keep raising.

You already made clear that there is almost no scenario that wouldn't be covered. That is why I didn't write that reply to any of your posts. It wouldn't carry any weight there.

 

[acbytesla]

You already made clear that there is almost no scenario that wouldn't be covered. That is why I didn't write that reply to any of your posts. It wouldn't carry any weight there.

You are mischaracterizing my posts. That I pointed out that a foreign national making a contribution of something of value to a campaign is illegal does NOT in any way suggest that any and every scenario is covered. That you immediately posit wild and outlandish outliers is 'going over the top'. They are not connected to reality and make a farce of the issue.

 

[BobTheCoward]

You are mischaracterizing my posts. That I pointed out that a foreign national making a contribution of something of value to a campaign is illegal does NOT in any way suggest that any and every scenario is covered. That you immediately posit wild and outlandish outliers is 'going over the top'. They are not connected to reality and make a farce of the issue.

What is the foreign national scenario involving information that wouldn't be illegal?

Of course it was farcical and outlandish. Many legal examinations involve bizarre counterfactuals. "Don't fight the hypothetical."

 

[acbytesla]

What is the foreign national scenario involving information that wouldn't be illegal?

I don't know and I don't care. I'd rather address the situation we are faced with.

Of course it was farcical and outlandish. Many legal examinations involve bizarre counterfactuals. "Don't fight the hypothetical."

Very very few do. And this really isn't one of them. I consider the positing of wild and outlandish outliers as making a mockery of what we are going through.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I don't know and I don't care. I'd rather address the situation we are faced with.



Very very few do. And this really isn't one of them. I consider the positing of wild and outlandish outliers as making a mockery of what we are going through.

The situation you are faced with is one side calling the actions illegal and the other side calling it legal. When faced with that situation, I think it is best to work on constructing the best argument the opposite side could make.

 

[acbytesla]

The situation you are faced with is one side calling the actions illegal and the other side calling it legal. When faced with that situation, I think it is best to work on constructing the best argument the opposite side could make.

Except constructing outlandish outliers does little to accomplish that goal.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Except constructing outlandish outliers does little to accomplish that goal.

Then I will save them for minoosh.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

"Trump considered an illegal campaign contribution but rejected the offer."

This appears to be a fantasy entirely of your own making.

 

[Cain]

Help me understand.

"Trump conspired with the Russians to steal the election,"

No. "Stealing" and "rigging" are Trumpian terms. The argument is that he cooperated with Russians in an effort to boost his campaign's chances of winning. And it never started there.

Has been downgraded to...

No. It started with Russians meddling in the election to 1) ideally help Trump prevail; 2) sow discord and impair Clinton's presidency. This Russian-going-it-alone meddling has been upgraded to possible collaboration/collusion/conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

And that's the crime?

No. Posters are entertaining a number of different scenarios and concluding that each is a crime. So, if you stole a bunch of hammers, then that's a crime. If you plotted to steal a bunch of hammers, but didn't actually go through with it, well, then that's also a crime.

 

[acbytesla]

No. "Stealing" and "rigging" are Trumpian terms. The argument is that he cooperated with Russians in an effort to boost his campaign's chances of winning. And it never started there.

No. It started with Russians meddling in the election to 1) ideally help Trump prevail; 2) sow discord and impair Clinton's presidency. This Russian-going-it-alone meddling has been upgraded to possible collaboration/collusion/conspiracy between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

Email from Rob Goldstone to Don Jr. 06/03/16
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia[a] met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

Email reply Don Jr to Rob Goldstone 06/03/16

Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?

And the following week Don Jr, Kushner and the campaign manager met with individuals with strong ties to the Kremlin to discuss this info. Hmmm. Sounds treasonous to me.

 

[Cain]

Email from Rob Goldstone to Don Jr. 06/03/16
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia[a] met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

Email reply Don Jr to Rob Goldstone 06/03/16

Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?

And the following week Don Jr, Kushner and the campaign manager met with individuals with strong ties to the Kremlin to discuss this info. Hmmm. Sounds treasonous to me.

I don't disagree, but I'm not exactly sure what your point is in your reply to me. If it's about the timeline i.e., going from Russia acting on its own to get Trump elected to active collaboration -- I said that because this highly incriminating e-mail was not released to the public until last year. Russian meddling to support Trump's campaign pre-dates election night.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't disagree, but I'm not exactly sure what your point is in your reply to me. If it's about the timeline i.e., going from Russia acting on its own to get Trump elected to active collaboration -- I said that because this highly incriminating e-mail was not released to the public until last year. Russian meddling to support Trump's campaign pre-dates election night.

My point is the email is very clear that this was Russian government support for Trump and Don Jr was happy to receive it and then went forward with meeting with the Russians. The crime is right there in black and white. It really is unequivocal. And according to Michael Cohen, Trump knew and approved of the meeting prior to it.

The question really isn't whether it can be proved that Jr, Manafort and Kushner committed conspiracy. That's already unquestionable. The question is whether it can be proved that Trump Sr committed conspiracy as well. And whether other acts of conspiracy took place and can be proved.

 

[Darat]

Would they be allowed to?

I have no opinion on that.

 

[Stacyhs]

If Obama's family/staffers had met with the Russians as Trump's have done, if Obama had lied and lied and lied as Trump has done, if Obama had called neo nazis "fine people", if Obama had childishly called Kim inflammatory names and then held a summit with him, if Obama had supported Putin over our own intelligence agencies and/or behaved at rallies the way Trump does, the GOP would have been having apoplectic fits and screaming impeachment. As it is, the GOP hypocrisy comes shining through once again.

 

[Cain]

My point is the email is very clear that this was Russian government support for Trump and Don Jr was happy to receive it and then went forward with meeting with the Russians. The crime is right there in black and white. It really is unequivocal. And according to Michael Cohen, Trump knew and approved of the meeting prior to it.

The question really isn't whether it can be proved that Jr, Manafort and Kushner committed conspiracy. That's already unquestionable. The question is whether it can be proved that Trump Sr committed conspiracy as well. And whether other acts of conspiracy took place and can be proved.

Okay, so you're taking issue with the word "possible," as in "this Russian-going-it-alone meddling has been upgraded to possible collaboration/collusion/conspiracy." Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that Jr. is guilty. Maybe Manafort and Kushner could argue they weren't sure what was supposed to happen in the meeting.

I'm inclined to agree that Trump knew. Steve Bannon has said similar things. He called Jr's behavior "treasonous" and has said there's "zero" chance he didn't tell daddy. And Bannon was fired from Breitbart for those remarks.

 

[acbytesla]

If Obama's family/staffers had met with the Russians as Trump's have done, if Obama had lied and lied and lied as Trump has done, if Obama had called neo nazis "fine people", if Obama had childishly called Kim inflammatory names and then held a summit with him, if Obama had supported Putin over our own intelligence agencies and/or behaved at rallies the way Trump does, the GOP would have been having apoplectic fits and screaming impeachment. As it is, the GOP hypocrisy comes shining through once again.

And rightfully so.


But that was Obama....he's black...and a Democrat .

 

[BobTheCoward]

Okay, so you're taking issue with the word "possible," as in "this Russian-going-it-alone meddling has been upgraded to possible collaboration/collusion/conspiracy." Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that Jr. is guilty. Maybe Manafort and Kushner could argue they weren't sure what was supposed to happen in the meeting.

I'm inclined to agree that Trump knew. Steve Bannon has said similar things. He called Jr's behavior "treasonous" and has said there's "zero" chance he didn't tell daddy. And Bannon was fired from Breitbart for those remarks.

It wouldn't matter what they think would happen if it is not possible for high level documents to be legal.

 

[acbytesla]

Okay, so you're taking issue with the word "possible," as in "this Russian-going-it-alone meddling has been upgraded to possible collaboration/collusion/conspiracy." Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that Jr. is guilty. Maybe Manafort and Kushner could argue they weren't sure what was supposed to happen in the meeting.
I'm inclined to agree that Trump knew. Steve Bannon has said similar things. He called Jr's behavior "treasonous" and has said there's "zero" chance he didn't tell daddy. And Bannon was fired from Breitbart for those remarks.

Its funny I just started thinking the highlighted part before your post. Kushner etc could say they were just tagging along. I find that highly unlikely, but without other evidence they might be able to successfully argue that. I'm not sure that only Cohen's word on this is enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the others knowledge and or involvement. A preponderance of doubt most certainly.

 

[acbytesla]

It wouldn't matter what they think would happen if it is not possible for high level documents to be legal.

That ISNT the point. They could hand them all kinds of legal documents, this would still constitute opposition research and a contribution from a foreign national and/or government.