Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

[BobTheCoward]

Uh, no. Trump fired Yates for refusing to support his travel ban policy. It had nothing to do with Flynn.

We don't know why he fired her.

 

[smartcooky]

No. You don't get the argument at all, despite its simplicity. The argument is that the underlying action which is supposedly criminal cannot be criminal because it is protected by the first amendment. And if the underlying action is not criminal, then there cannot be a criminal conspiracy.

No, its you who doesn't get it. The "dirt" came from the emails and THE EMAILS WERE STOLEN.

Breaking into a computer and stealing private documents & correspondence is a criminal offence (just like breaking into a hotel and stealing documents from the headquarters of an opposition party) is a criminal offence - sound familiar?

► If Trump only found out the emails were stolen after they were stolen, and still received them, or information from them, that makes him an accessory after the fact to the theft, and he has received stolen property. Both are criminal offences.

► If Trump knew the emails were going to be stolen and received them, or information from them, that makes him an accessory before the fact to theft, and he has received stolen property. Both are criminal offences.

► If he asked for the emails to be stolen (he did so publicly - that is on record) and received them, or information from them, that makes him an accessory before the fact to theft, and he has received stolen property. Both are criminal offences.

► If he colluded with the Russians to steal those emails, even if he never received them or any information from them, then he has participated in a criminal conspiracy to steal those documents.

 

[BobTheCoward]

No, its you who doesn't get it. The "dirt" came from the emails and THE EMAILS WERE STOLEN.

Breaking into a computer and stealing private documents & correspondence is a criminal offence (just like breaking into a hotel and stealing documents from the headquarters of an opposition party is a criminal offence - sound familiar?)

► If Trump only found out the emails were stolen after they were stolen, and still received them, or information from them, that makes him an accessory after the fact to the theft, and he has received stolen property. Both are criminal offences.

► If Trump knew the emails were going to be stolen and received them, or information from them, that makes him an accessory before the fact to theft, and he has received stolen property. Both are criminal offences.

► If he asked for the emails to be stolen (he did so publicly - that is on record) and received them, or information from them, that makes him an accessory before the fact to theft, and he has received stolen property. Both are criminal offences.

► If he colluded with the Russians to steal those emails, even if he never received them or any information from them, then he has participated in a criminal conspiracy to steal those documents.

But you don't have evidence of even a meeting about those emails. Zig is right to the extent that the tower meeting wasn't about emails.

 

[smartcooky]

Uh, no. Trump fired Yates for refusing to support his travel ban policy. It had nothing to do with Flynn.

That isn't what Sally Yates is saying

"Former acting Attorney General Sally Yates on Tuesday shot down the White House's efforts to downplay the severity of her warnings about former national security adviser Michael Flynn.
"There was nothing casual about this," Yates said in an interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper, reacting to White House press secretary Sean Spicer's assertion that her warning about Flynn's interactions with Russian representatives was a "heads up."

"I absolutely did not use the term heads up," Yates told Cooper. "I called (White House counsel) Don McGahn and told him I had a very sensitive matter I need to discuss with him that day in person."

Trump used the fake excuse that he fired her because she told him his travel ban was unconstitutional. Anyone with a brain and an IQ over 50 knows that it was really about James Comey's investigation of Russian election interference and Michael Flynn.

Warning for those who are allergic to watching videos. This link has a 3 min video interview with Sally Yates. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/16/politics/sally-yates-anderson-cooper-cnntv/index.html

 

[acbytesla]

Which goes back to the conversation with Kellyb. Is there any speech activity a foreign national can engage in? If it is personal experience with the subject, can they not share it?

Sure they can. But how they do this makes all the difference. If some Russian told you a story about Hillary Clinton during the campaign or published it about Hillary Clinton on his/her own then that would be free speech.

However, meeting with the Trump campaign to coordinate the release of that dirt so they might be indebted to the Russians would not be protected free speech. Isn't this obvious? And out of curiosity, what do you think the purpose of the meeting was?

 

[Fudbucker]

But you don't have evidence of even a meeting about those emails. Zig is right to the extent that the tower meeting wasn't about emails.

Which begs the question: why all the lies and changing stories about this meeting? That alone makes me almost sure there was something nefarious going on.

 

[Minoosh]

So here's the thing why selling the dirt is different than getting it for free.

If Ivan calls up the Trump campaign and says I've got dirt on Hillary Clinton for the very cheap price of only one million dollars. Private individuals are paying for it.

As bad as that is, it is infinitely better than if Ivan comes to the campaign and offers to give that dirt for later considerations. Clearly the need for a meeting is to arrange an unknown quid pro quo which means policy. However contrary to how Trump operates, that isn't his to sell. That belongs to the American people. He is merely the custodian.

It could have been a trial balloon just to see how the Trump campaign would respond to the offer of dirt. Once it's established that Team Trump would be interested, nothing substantive must come out of the meeting at all.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Sure they can. But how they do this makes all the difference. If some Russian told you a story about Hillary Clinton during the campaign or published it about Hillary Clinton on his/her own then that would be free speech.

However, meeting with the Trump campaign to coordinate the release of that dirt so they might be indebted to the Russians would not be protected free speech. Isn't this obvious? And out of curiosity, what do you think the purpose of the meeting was?

I'm not allowed to say what my position on the purpose of the meeting was. That would violate my apology.

And that isn't obvious. Does the dirt matter? What if the dirt was "Bill had an affair with Monica"? Is a foreign national banned from coordinating a release of that information with the campaign? This is a Socratic question.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Which begs the question: why all the lies and changing stories about this meeting? That alone makes me almost sure there was something nefarious going on.

Because it is embarrassing regardless of the nature of the meeting seems like an easy defense.

 

[WilliamSeger]

How about personal experience of Russian business partners?

Here's the initial offering:

Good morning

Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?

I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.

Best

Rob Goldstone

Official Russian documents were offered. But after this and the "I love it" response, DJTJ apparently talked to Emin on the phone before setting up the meeting, so we have no idea what Emin told him about the "official documents and information." Hopefully, we'll find out what was discussed at the recently revealed pre-meeting. I wonder if anyone recorded it.

 

[smartcooky]

@Bob the Coward "But you don't have evidence of even a meeting about those emails".

On 27 July 2016, we have clear evidence of him openly asking Russia to "find" them.

“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Trump said. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

Russian spies began trying to hack Hillary Clinton’s personal email server on that very day, within a couple of hours of Dolt 45's plea to the Russian government to find emails Clinton had erased.

An indictment filed by Robert Mueller, the special counsel, said Russian hackers attempted “for the first time” to break into email accounts used by Clinton’s personal office “after hours” on 27 July 2016.

 

[BobTheCoward]

@Bob the Coward "But you don't have evidence of even a meeting about those emails".

On 27 July 2016, we have clear evidence of him openly asking Russia to "find" them.

“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Trump said. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

Russian spies began trying to hack Hillary Clinton’s personal email server on that very, within a couple of hours of Dolt 45's plea to the Russian government to find emails Clinton had erased.

An indictment filed by Robert Mueller, the special counsel, said Russian hackers attempted “for the first time” to break into email accounts used by Clinton’s personal office “after hours” on 27 July 2016.

Which isn't evidence about a meeting

 

[acbytesla]

It could have been a trial balloon just to see how the Trump campaign would respond to the offer of dirt. Once it's established that Team Trump would be interested, nothing substantive must come out of the meeting at all.

Or then again, maybe a lot came from the meeting and we just don't know about everything that was discussed and or arranged. The meeting's purpose in fact as per Don Jr's email was a conspiracy.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Or then again, maybe a lot came from the meeting and we just don't know about everything that was discussed and or arranged. The meeting's purpose in fact as per Don Jr's email was a conspiracy.

Are you saying there is no official document that would not be a conspiracy to share? Every one?

 

[acbytesla]

I'm not allowed to say what my position on the purpose of the meeting was. That would violate my apology.

And that isn't obvious. Does the dirt matter? What if the dirt was "Bill had an affair with Monica"? Is a foreign national banned from coordinating a release of that information with the campaign? This is a Socratic question.

Are you being deliberately obtuse for fun? Yanking the old chain so to speak?

It really doesn't matter. The meeting itself waa a conspiracy and it is all laid out in Don Jr`s email. If it turns out to be worthless, oh well they already committed the crime.

 

[Minoosh]

Which isn't evidence about a meeting

No, but it will be interesting to see if Mueller can connect enough dots that portray a damning "body of work." Nothing had to come out of that meeting; the fact that Team Trump "loved it" is answer enough.

The plea on TV, you could say that was facetious; but he was literally calling on a foreign power to meddle in the election.

Combine that with his gazillion tweets about the "witch hunt" and constantly maligning the press, the investigators and his own attorney general - the pattern is using his "bully pulpit" in the more popular usage of "bully" - throwing his own weight around in repeated attempts to close down inquiry.

IMO, proving he's guilty of a crime doesn't accomplish much, unless it's in a state rather than a federal jurisdiction. Erosion of support might make a difference; getting him on a technicality probably won't.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Are you being deliberately obtuse for fun? Yanking the old chain so to speak?

It really doesn't matter. The meeting itself waa a conspiracy and it is all laid out in Don Jr`s email. If it turns out to be worthless, oh well they already committed the crime.

I'm being Socratic. It seems it is only conspiracy if sharing the documents would violate election law. And I think that raises two questions. Are there official documents that presenting them would not violate campaign law (for example, public documents)? And can they reasonably assert in court that was their expectation?

 

[Minoosh]

Or then again, maybe a lot came from the meeting and we just don't know about everything that was discussed and or arranged. The meeting's purpose in fact as per Don Jr's email was a conspiracy.

IMO, you don't have Manafort, Jared and Don Jr. all in a meeting unless you expect something substantive. But that's looking at it from a U.S. perspective. From a Russian perspective, having the whole team assembled might have seemed a little too obvious, especially if they were trying to fly under the radar. So, did anything of substance happen? I don't know but I agree that Donald Jr.'s enthusiastic acceptance amounts to a conspiracy all by itself.

But I don't want Trump gone on a technicality; I want to see a shift in public opinion as people come to realize that he is a liability for the country. Trolling libruls is not worth the lulz. But that's easy for me to say.

 

[acbytesla]

Are you saying there is no official document that would not be a conspiracy to share? Every one?

Huh? If Ivan sent the document to the Trump campaign without the meeting or discussion then there is no conspiracy. He's exercising free speech. It's the damn meeting that is clearly the conspiracy.
Here is what actually happened.

Email from Rob Goldstone to Don Jr. 06/03/16
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia[a] met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

Email reply Don Jr to Rob Goldstone 06/03/16

Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Tower_meeting

Read the Wikipedia entry on the meeting in total. This was a conspiracy.

Here you have an email sent to Don Jr. promising dirt and this is part of the Russian government's support. And who did they meet with? Not Joe Schmoe but Russians with direct links to high level Russian government officials.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Huh? If Ivan sent the document to the Trump campaign without the meeting or discussion then there is no conspiracy. He's exercising free speech. It's the damn meeting that is clearly the conspiracy.
Here is what actually happened.

Email from Rob Goldstone to Don Jr. 06/03/16
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia[a] met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.

Email reply Don Jr to Rob Goldstone 06/03/16

Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Tower_meeting

Read the Wikipedia entry on the meeting in total. This was a conspiracy.

Here you have an email sent to Don Jr. promising dirt and this is part of the Russian government's support. And who did they meet with? Not Joe Schmoe but Russians with direct links to high level Russian government officials.

What does the meeting change if it is information that can be given out? What if is documents that can be obtained via the Russian equivalent of the FOIA? What is the crime it is conspiracy to commit?