Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

[Ziggurat]

Just from what we already know, the Russians were offering TrumpCo a "thing of value" with the hope of getting sanctions relief, and TrumpCo met with them to discuss it.

First, I don't think it is established that this was a "thing of value". That seems like an untested legal theory, and constitutionally dubious to boot. Second, while we know after the fact that the Russians wanted sanctions relief, we don't know that the Trump campaign knew this prior to the meeting. And if no deal was struck (and we have no evidence that one was), then what they wanted is irrelevant.

That is solicitation, and it doesn't even matter whether or not the dirt actually existed or how it was obtained, or that TrumpCo didn't think the dirt was worth the price.

It's not a crime to listen to a solicitation.

We don't even know about that last one, since there's no reason to believe TrumpCo's fifth version of what happened.

Sure, you don't have to believe them, but you can't substitute your own speculation either.

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this

Defend what? The presumption of innocence regarding criminal accusations? Basic due process?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

We don't have any evidence that they weren't discussing the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe either.

Is there evidence that the Russians had something significant to say about the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and did they set up websites on which to publish information about the Marvel Cinematic Universe within the same timeframe as the meeting, and did Donald Trump publicly call for the Russians to discuss the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Because all of those things are true of the DNC emails.

 

[Ziggurat]

Is there evidence that the Russians had something significant to say about the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and did they set up websites on which to publish information about the Marvel Cinematic Universe within the same timeframe as the meeting, and did Donald Trump publicly call for the Russians to discuss the Marvel Cinematic Universe? Because all of those things are true of the DNC emails.

Once again, there is no evidence the meeting had anything whatsoever to do with the DNC emails. You're grasping for straws.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Once again, there is no evidence the meeting had anything whatsoever to do with the DNC emails. You're grasping for straws.

"the" meeting?

Russia “Previewed” Plan to Disseminate Emails with Trump Campaign

A significant recent revelation in the Russia investigation has been largely overlooked in the rush of several breaking news stories over the past few days. A nugget of information is contained in the memo written by Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee (the so-called Schiff Memo), which was released on Saturday morning.

Prior to the memo, we knew that a Russian agent told Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos of “Moscow possessing ‘dirt’” on Hillary Clinton “in the form of ‘thousands of emails,’” according to Papadopoulos’s plea statement. The memo went a legally significant step further. As Rep. Adam Schiff recently told Chris Hayes, “our memo discloses for the first time that the Russians preview to Papadopoulos that they could help with disseminating these stolen emails.” Rep. Schiff added, “When Donald Trump openly called on the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails, they’d be richly rewarded if they released these to the press, his campaign had already been put on notice that the Russians were prepared to do just that and disseminate these stolen emails.”

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Squawwwwwk! Collusion is not a crime! Collusion is not a crime! Squawwwwwk! Who's a pretty bird? Who's a pretty bird?

 

[BobTheCoward]

"the" meeting?

Russia “Previewed” Plan to Disseminate Emails with Trump Campaign




You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

But do you have anything showing that it was communicated upwards?

 

[WilliamSeger]

But do you have anything showing that it was communicated upwards?

Yes, as noted in the article: Trump's "coincidental" call on the Russians to "find" Hillary's emails. Then there's the circumstantial evidence that the emails were released and that Trump did attempt to lift the sanctions, and he did betray the country by defending Putin's denials in Helsinki.

 

[Ziggurat]

"the" meeting?

Yes, the meeting. Pay attention. This sub-discussion is specifically about the Trump Jr. meeting at Trump Tower. It is not about Papadopoulos. Although on that front, I will note that you're conflating DNC emails with Clinton's private server emails.

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

Where have I heard that before?

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

Repetition doesn't make you more convincing, especially when you simply cut and paste. Sad.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Yes, the meeting. Pay attention. This sub-discussion is specifically about the Trump Jr. meeting at Trump Tower. It is not about Papadopoulos. Although on that front, I will note that you're conflating DNC emails with Clinton's private server emails.



Where have I heard that before?



Repetition doesn't make you more convincing, especially when you simply cut and paste. Sad.

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Yes, as noted in the article: Trump's "coincidental" call on the Russians to "find" Hillary's emails. Then there's the circumstantial evidence that the emails were released and that Trump did attempt to lift the sanctions, and he did betray the country by defending Putin's denials in Helsinki.

As you said, coincidental. Also hurt by the fact that he reneges on every deal he enters. Actually lifting sanctions because he received something in return seems out of character.

 

[Ziggurat]

Squawwwwwk! Collusion is not a crime! Collusion is not a crime! Squawwwwwk! Who's a pretty bird? Who's a pretty bird?

You misplaced your parrot.

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground.

 

[acbytesla]

Is it specifically the delivering of dirt that you object to? Or is it the meeting with campaign personnel?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/18/obama.trip/index.html

Meeting with foreign countries and their representatives seems to be a fairly standard part of campaigning for president, and doing so is certainly intended to foster good relations with those countries and to set the groundwork for policy-making in the future as it affects those countries.

The purpose is important. Note, Trump wasn't meeting with them. It was the campaign manager, his deputy and the two children. This wasn't about developing relationships, it was about directly swaying a Presidential election. THAT IS ILLEGAL SWEETHEART and HAS ALWAYS BEEN!

 

[Foolmewunz]

You misplaced your parrot.

Or perhaps your continued hand-waving has WilliamSeger in a trance?

 

[WilliamSeger]

You misplaced your parrot.

I gave you three chances to deny that you should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to defend this, but like Trump himself, the Party of Trump is completely shameless. That is why it must be burned to the ground

 

[phiwum]

They agreed to listen to the Russians. I don't see how you can criminalize listening.

When listening provides a benefit to the campaign? Sure, that could be a crime. That's taking a non-monetary contribution, something of value.

I'm not entirely convinced. We can wait and see what Mueller says.

 

[LSSBB]

Or perhaps your continued hand-waving has WilliamSeger in a trance?

He's handwaiving from the crenellations of the bailey right now. He's got plenty of Trumpian company up there too.



They are all busy farting in our general direction.

 

[acbytesla]

What gets me the most is this absurd attempt to pretend that this meeting was no big deal and is political SOP. IT WAS A CRIME. No ifs or buts, it was illegal and was treasonous. Any so called patriot would actually know this without being told. They wouldn't equivocate if offered dirt from a hostile foreign government, they would be on the phone to the FBI immediately.

Trump supporters simply tossed their loyalty to the nation in exchange for a cultish crush on the sleaziest con man imaginable. It would be amusing if it wasn't so serious.

 

[Ziggurat]

When listening provides a benefit to the campaign? Sure, that could be a crime.

Yeah, I don't think so. I think the idea that merely listening can be criminalized will crash spectacularly into the 1st amendment.

I'm not entirely convinced. We can wait and see what Mueller says.

Mueller wouldn't be the final word on the matter.

 

[LSSBB]

What gets me the most is this absurd attempt to pretend that this meeting was no big deal and is political SOP. IT WAS A CRIME. No ifs or buts, it was illegal and was treasonous. Any so called patriot would actually know this without being told. They wouldn't equivocate if offered dirt from a hostile foreign government, they would be on the phone to the FBI immediately.

Trump supporters simply tossed their loyalty to the nation in exchange for a cultish crush on the sleaziest con man imaginable. It would be amusing if it wasn't so serious.

Now they are trying to defend him based on their own not knowing or understanding the criminality of the encounter. It's like defense by Dunning-Kruger: if I don't understand how it is illegal, it's not illegal.

Kind of an inverse Kramer:

It's a write-off for them."
"How is it a write-off?"
"They just write it off."
"Write it off what?"
"Jerry, all these big companies, they write off everything."
"You don't even know what a write-off is."
"Do you?"
"No, I don't."
"But they do. And they're the ones writing it off."
"I wish I had the last twenty seconds of my life back."
- Kramer and Jerry, in "The Package"

 

[acbytesla]

Now they are trying to defend him based on their own not knowing or understanding the criminality of the encounter. It's like defense by Dunning-Kruger: if I don't understand how it is illegal, it's not illegal.

Kind of an inverse Kramer:

This is the one difference I see all the time that blows me away. The smartest people I know are always adding caveats to their understanding. They tend to be quite humble because they know that someone else always knows more. And some of the most ignorant people I have ever met act like they know and understand EVERYTHING.