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All things Trump + Russia Part 4

Conspiring with a foreign power (and an adversary) to disrupt the integrity of a US election sure does sound like a crime to me.
 
What amazes me most is how this issue has become focused on the legality of the meeting (no doubt in response to efforts by the Trump/Republican spin machine). I am in the camp that a significant number of actual laws were broken. But even more we now have a confirmed and self-admitted case of the POTUS's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager meeting with a representative of a hostile state specifically in order to sway the US Presidential election in favor of Trump. Trump Sr. most likely knew about it in advance, but whether he did or not, he undeniably (by his own statements) lied repeatedly about it later to to cover up the real purpose of the meetings. As did Trump Jr., who repeatedly lie about it for the same purpose, again as documented through his own public statements (including lies in front of a Congressional hearing while under oath).

Indeed the Russians did subsequently provide substantial assistance to Trump's campaign by the very means that were the topic of that meeting, making public damaging emails obtained by illegal hacking as well as heavily infiltrating social media and other Internet sites to generate false spin against Clinton and to favor Trump. Trump Sr. himself called on the Russians to intensify their release of the damaging hacked emails and the Russians immediately did so. None of this is speculation - it is all in the public record.

Putin himself has admitted to favoring Trump in the campaign and it is clear that significant portions of the Russian government mobilized appropriately.

I am simply flabbergasted! It is now well documented that Trump's campaign had multiple contacts with agents of an enemy government with the specific purpose of using their help to alter the outcome of a US election. And Russia did just that. Further Trump has subsequently and inexplicably heavily favored Russia in terms of foreign policy at the expense of our traditional allies and the advice of many of his own colleagues. The quid-pro-qup is difficult to deny. Yet somehow Trump retains a substantial core of public support and most of the Republican leadership either think this outrageous moral and treasonous behavior is either okay, or they are too afraid to speak out against it. Giving up their patriotism for a 15% tax cut and a Supreme Court pick.

Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil?

We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?
 
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The Shrike said:
Conspiring with a foreign power (and an adversary) to disrupt the integrity of a US election sure does sound like a crime to me.
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Treason is a crime. In fact specifically listed in the US Constitution.

Typical dictionary definition:
the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the legal government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance.
It is difficult not to see Trump's and his campaign's actions as matching this definition. let alone the more generic definition
Betrayal of a trust, treachery.

The more restrictive 18 US Code definition:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Do Trump's actions fit the "giving them aid and comfort definition?" Well after their strong and material support of his election he heavily and inexplicably favors Russia and their murderous dictator Putin in his foreign policy and in his public announcements, in sharp contrast to virtually all other US and allied leaders. And his election itself clearly was what the Russians most desired.

It is certainly treason and treachery by my definition, whether or not it perfectly matches 18 US Code.
 
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Giordano said:
Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil?

We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?
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Short answer yes.

But for different reasons between the public and the leadership.

The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn.

The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level.

There are no heroes left in DC.
 
Giordano said:
... Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil? ... We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?
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Giordano said:
... It is certainly treason and treachery by my definition, whether or not it perfectly matches 18 US Code.
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Now is the time for all good men. Yet I struggle to think of any line to follow that which is not a statement of wishful thinking, sorry to admit. Or, at least, that is the sensation, when words have lost their meaning, reason sheds little light, and good will seems so elusive, even illusory. ... For now, I've run out of excuses for not coming to any sort of aid, and avoid mirrors and that pest, Jiminy Cricket. Getting old, by golly, praying for some magical oomph.
 
Originally Posted by Giordano
Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil?

We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?
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LSSBB said:
Short answer yes.

But for different reasons between the public and the leadership.

The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn.

The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level.

There are no heroes left in DC.
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Agreed. Confirmation bias and the inability to admit error is extremely strong in many, if not most, people. Even unimportant errors can be difficult for some to admit. A couple weeks ago, my husband and I were out with his brother and wife for dinner. My brother-in-law said something that we all reacted to with the same confusion. He'd accidentally used an incorrect word when he meant to use another as in saying "washing machine" instead of "dishwasher". When we all confirmed he'd said "washing machine", he insisted he'd said "dishwasher". All three of us heard "washing machine". He continued to deny his mistake and told his wife she needed her hearing tested. When my husband and I backed up his wife, he insisted we were mistaken, too. He never admitted to making a simple mistake the we all do from time to time.
 
LSSBB said:
Short answer yes.

But for different reasons between the public and the leadership.

The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn.

The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level.

There are no heroes left in DC.
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Quote from the novel I Claudius referring to the sad state of the Roman Senate at the advent of Imperial rule:

"the only lions left in Rome are in the arena. ..."
 
Stacyhs said:
Looks like AlaskaBushPilot has overdosed on Trump flavored Kool-Aid. I stopped reading about half way through his non-sensical rant and won't bother responding to it because it's a complete and utter waste of time. He's just gone too far down the rabbit hole.
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Or he just watches a lot of the Jimmy Dore show.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore


tl;dr Jim's still pissed at Hillary for not winning (and providing him with 8 yrs. of material) that he cannot countenance anyone critiquing Trump on his show.
 
As someone who regularly checks out the TYT network, Jimmy Dore is easily the most unlikable member. Almost every time he steps outside his own show and into the main TYT YouTube channel, the dislikes exceed the likes, and for good reason.
 
Venom said:
As someone who regularly checks out the TYT network, Jimmy Dore is easily the most unlikable member. Almost every time he steps outside his own show and into the main TYT YouTube channel, the dislikes exceed the likes, and for good reason.
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Knowingly or otherwise, Dore promotes a lot of Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories about Syria, so it's not surprising to see him doing the same for the Russian collusion thing. But I wrote him off as an idiot back when he started pushing the "theory" that Building 7 might have been brought down with magical silent explosives, so I guess he's what the Russians call a useful idiot.
 
You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.
 
Drewbot said:
You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.
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True. Maybe reality is simply a computer program and we're all stuck in a simulation.

Or maybe Trump is a criminal and his followers have managed to brainwash themselves through years of "alt-media" diets.

Confirmation bias doesn't even go far enough to explain the devotion of Trumpists.
 
Drewbot said:
You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.
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Personal story:

I never liked John Mayer's music. Thought he was pretentious, didn't like the tone or style. I also never really got into the Grateful Dead.

My wife is a Deadhead, travelled to watch their shows, got the fanzines. She really wanted to go to the Fare Thee Well concerts in Chicago, and couldn't get tickets. At the time we didn't have the resources to score tickets. So we watched it on Pay Per View. I really got to love the music, and became a fan myself.

Then I heard 3 of the remaining 4 band members were going to tour with John Mayer. No way, I said. That would be horrible.

My wife convinced me to go see them in Alpine Valley. I was blown away, John Mayer played so well together with them I immediately felt I was wrong all along.

I follow a few Deadhead fb sites. Lots of Deadheads still can't accept John Mayer.

I know I can be biased. That's why I keep an open mind and analyze my biases.

I haven't liked Trump since I started following news on him back in the 80s. I watched his show with my wife, and could see how he exhibited everything I knew was wrong about poor business leadership. I also read about his scams like Trump U and his charity. I followed his tweets and so on.

I was a Republican. Tax cuts strike dear to my heart. You would think I would be predisposed to accept the man if he even showed a Millard Filmore level of presidentiality. He is beneath all that. I keep an open mind, and so far the scales are so far out of his favor it isn't even funny. I don't think bias is why I don't like him as President. My anger is at how my fellow conservatives continue to twist and contort themselves and abandon their principles to defend what I feel I justifiably see is a charlatan.

How about you?
 
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Drewbot said:
You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.
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Interesting way of putting things. It is not that I do not like Trump; don't know the man. However, aware of history and according to exact same method of analysis I might apply to, say, radical Islam, I find his policies criminal in intent and murderous in practice. As for the Republican Party and its leaders, I apply the same criteria as those used at the Nuremberg trials, with the sole caveat that I oppose the death penalty.
Slings and Arrows said:
Your touching, poignant and heartfelt "personal story" has me all teary-eyed. I now realize the errors of my ways and will be voting for John Mayer in 2020. Thanks for sharing.
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That easy to influence? Best give power of attorney to a mature adult asap.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
Interesting way of putting things. It is not that I do not like Trump; don't know the man. However, aware of history and according to exact same method of analysis I might apply to, say, radical Islam, I find his policies criminal in intent and murderous in practice. As for the Republican Party and its leaders, I apply the same criteria as those used at the Nuremberg trials, with the sole caveat that I oppose the death penalty.

That easy to influence? Best give power of attorney to a mature adult asap.
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Heck, John Mayer would be a better president, probably. Courtney Love, though...
 
The Don said:
A civil war simply would not work. The overwhelming majority of military and law enforcement are firmly behind President Trump and he has tried to ensure that they have all the funding they require and/or all the ex-military hardware they require and by pardoning Sheriff Joe he's also given a clear signal that breaking the law in a way that aligns with his wishes is consequence free.

Any popular uprising would be immediately and brutally put down.
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Yep this is how democracy dies.
 
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