Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

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Stacyhs said:
Manafort not flipping on Trump for immunity in the face of almost certain conviction is odd but he must have his reason(s). And whatever they are, they must be compelling. I highly doubt loyalty to Trump is among them.
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There is always the possibility he was not offered a deal or he was only offered an unattractive return such as 10 years instead of 20.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
There is always the possibility he was not offered a deal or he was only offered an unattractive return such as 10 years instead of 20.
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I can't see him not being offered a deal unless Mueller doesn't need him. And at almost 70, ten years is a hell of a better deal over 20+ years.
 
Stacyhs said:
Manafort not flipping on Trump for immunity in the face of almost certain conviction is odd but he must have his reason(s). And whatever they are, they must be compelling. I highly doubt loyalty to Trump is among them.
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Yeah. He'd also have to trust Trump to return that loyalty, and I doubt he's that thick.

Maybe there's something out there that is scarier than a life sentence.
 
Stacyhs said:
I figured they were.

Ten years is never a wash when they're your ten years.
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That's not the wash. The difference between 10 and 20 is the wash. Is getting out at 80 really that much better than getting out at 90?

Anyway, this speculation is moot. We don't know why everyone's striking deals with Mueller except Manafort.
 
Manafort has a long feud with a Russian billionaire he basically embezzled from. If he starts narcing on other oligarchs, his life and that of his family might be in serious danger.
 
Trump Tweets

"“Collusion with Russia was very real. Hillary Clinton and her team 100% colluded with the Russians, and so did Adam Schiff who is on tape trying to collude with what he thought was Russians to obtain compromising material on DJT. We also know that Hillary Clinton paid through...."

"....a law firm, eventually Kremlin connected sources, to gather info on Donald Trump. Collusion is very real with Russia, but only with Hillary and the Democrats, and we should demand a full investigation.” Dan Bongino on @foxandfriends Looking forward to the new IG Report!"
 
LSSBB said:
No, that's why I no longer support the Republican Party and have joined the Libertarians.
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Sad thing is the L.P. has a long record of sheer incompetence when it comes to elections. They make a lot of noise, but elect very few people to office.
 
Stacyhs said:
Manafort is an idiot for not making a deal with Mueller. His guilt is more than obvious. The only thing I can think of for his failing to make a deal is he thinks Trump will pardon him. Only a fool would pardon Manafort but we are talking about Trump here. And tax evasion by the rich is something Trump has no problem with.
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CapelDodger said:
Let's not forget that Manafort's involvement with dodgy Slavs and their money-flows long predates his involvement with Trump. He may worry less about the Kremlin than about people in Brighton Beach. By not flipping on Trump he sends a message to them - "I'm no squealer".
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Stacyhs said:
Manafort not flipping on Trump for immunity in the face of almost certain conviction is odd but he must have his reason(s). And whatever they are, they must be compelling. I highly doubt loyalty to Trump is among them.
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I don't think we know what is going on here, but one thing that is absolutely clear is Stacyhs is right about this: "And whatever they [reasons for not flipping] are, they must be compelling. I highly doubt loyalty to Trump is among them.

Some possible reasons he isn't flipping:
1. Seeing if he can get lucky with the jury: High profile trials attract jurors with an agenda, and it is conceivable that a raging pro-Trumper could hang the jury.
2. Playing for a pardon. This is fraught with problems for Trump and Manafort. It obviously doesn't get Manafort out of jail since conviction on state charges seems likely after a pardon. For Trump, a Manafort pardon in the face of this kind of overwhelming evidence would cause some political problems for Trump and it might cause real problems for pro Trump Republicans in the midterm elections. It might also be part of a case for impeachment against Trump. Still Manafort has few options and Trump may not have a lot of options to prevent the truth of his Russian involvements from becoming public.
3. Fear of violent retribution: Manafort has been playing high stakes games with some seriously violent people for a long time. If they can figure out a way to threaten him or his family with violence to keep his mouth shut they probably will.
4. Friends in high places: Manafort has been a Republican political operative for a long time and there are probably a lot of Republicans that have gotten money from him. They might work with the president to pressure Manafort to keep his mouth shut.
5. Not enough damning evidence against Trump to make it worth while for the prosecution to offer him a deal: This seems like a real possibility to me. Is there stuff he knows that Gates doesn't? Maybe, but if that is so, it is not public knowledge what that is.
6. He's a delusional nut job. This seems unlikely but it is more likely than that he is hanging tough out of loyalty to Trump.


Questions for the pro-Trumpers participating in this thread:
1. If given the opportunity would you get on a Manafort jury and vote not guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt if you believed it would help protect Trump?
2. Do you see the prosecution of Manafort as part of a deep state effort to undermine Trump?
3. Do you think Manafort is being unfairly prosecuted?
4. Why do you think Manafort isn't flipping?
 
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CapelDodger said:
Let's not forget that Manafort's involvement with dodgy Slavs and their money-flows long predates his involvement with Trump. He may worry less about the Kremlin than about people in Brighton Beach. By not flipping on Trump he sends a message to them - "I'm no squealer".
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???


ETA: OK, I Googled it. Got it now I think.... Russian Mafia?
 
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dudalb said:
Sad thing is the L.P. has a long record of sheer incompetence when it comes to elections. They make a lot of noise, but elect very few people to office.
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I disagree with this. The Libertarian Party is a minor party. Minor parties in winner take all type elections can't win elections. The two major parties maneuver their policies and actions to attract money and votes. They are more cynical than a minor party is about their belief structure. Their goal is to get elected and they aren't all that interested in promoting ideologies that won't help them get elected.

The Libertarian Party survives because it promotes a particular ideology that is favored by a minority of the country. If they attempted to actually get people elected they would need to compete with the major parties for money and votes by cynically crafting their message to attract money and votes. And in doing that they would, per force, lose the support of some of their base of support.

The only time a minor party has had substantial success in the US was when the Republican Party rose to power before the civil war. Barring some difficult to predict major event like that the Democratic and Republican Parties will remain the only parties to achieve substantial electoral success for the foreseeable future.
 
Reuters developing story
Rick Gates testifies that he committed crimes with Paul Manafort
 
davefoc said:
Questions for the pro-Trumpers participating in this thread:
1. If given the opportunity would you get on a Manafort jury and vote not guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt if you believed it would help protect Trump?
2. Do you see the prosecution of Manafort as part of a deep state effort to undermine Trump? 3. Do you think Manafort is being unfairly prosecuted?
4. Why do you think Manafort isn't flipping?
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I saw a pro-Trump woman being interviewed the other day. She said she believes there is an anti-Trump deep state running the country. When asked who these deep state people were, she said "The Clintons, the Obamas, and the Bushes." She was then asked why, if this deep state was running the gov't, Trump was the president and not Clinton, she replied, "Well, they're trying to run it."

Facts will never succeed in changing what this woman and those like her believe. "Facts" for her are whatever supports what she already wants/needs to believe. Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is permanent.
 
davefoc said:
"And whatever they [reasons for not flipping] are, they must be compelling. I highly doubt loyalty to Trump is among them.

...

4. Why do you think Manafort isn't flipping?
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I know one conservative who agrees Manafort would throw Trump under the bus in a nanosecond, but he isn't ratting because there's nothing to rat about. He contends this prosecution shows just how vindictive Mueller and the Deep State are.
 
Cain said:
I know one conservative who agrees Manafort would throw Trump under the bus in a nanosecond, but he isn't ratting because there's nothing to rat about. He contends this prosecution shows just how vindictive Mueller and the Deep State are.
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Nothing to rat about should have been in my list. I think it is very likely that Trump knew about the Russian meeting before it happened and Don Jr. informed him about it immediately after it was over. It seems likely that Manafort knows that Trump knew about the meeting and maybe he knows that Don Jr. told his dad about it. But unless he can go beyond that and discuss what Trump proposed to do for and with the Russians or something else related to Trump's Russian/Ukranian loans, business and/or money laundering he might not have much to offer.



Nothing to rat about that he can't corroborate should probably be on the list as well. Uncorroborated Manafort testimony is useless for Mueller's purposes and if that's all he's got Manafort doesn't have much.
 
LSSBB said:
I'm a conservative and I actually care about democracy and law. So your point is...?
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Stacyhs said:
You can be a conservative and not support Trump. Some do speak out, like Ana Navarro, Flake, Sanford, Kasich, McCain, etc. Sadly, if the polls of Republicans are correct, the large majority do support him. That itself supports that partisanship is more important to them than anything when it comes to politics. So does the fact that most of the Never Trump Republicans put their tails between their legs and rolled over after the election.
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Conservative =/= Republican
 
Cain said:
I know one conservative who agrees Manafort would throw Trump under the bus in a nanosecond, but he isn't ratting because there's nothing to rat about. He contends this prosecution shows just how vindictive Mueller and the Deep State are.
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Why doesn't this kind of 'thinking' surprise me?

I remember a member in another forum I belong to. She is a far right wing Trump supporter who insisted back in 2016 that there was absolutely no Russian meddling in the election. She was sure it was all a witch hunt and a hoax created by the Dems for not winning the election and derided anyone who disagreed. She is no longer a member of that group and I often wonder if she still believes that or has managed to actually admit she was wrong. Knowing her, I suspect the former is the case.
 
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