Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

[ceptimus]

Can you point out what was promised by the leave campaign in the lead up to the referendum?

What exactly was their unanimous, coherent view on what leaving the EU actually entailed?

That we would leave the EU - we would no longer be a member nation of the EU. EU rules and regulations would cease to apply in the UK. We would take back control of our borders and our law.

Now any subsequent deal on trade or other matters that might or might not be agreed by the EU once we're no longer a member couldn't be promised by anyone - as clearly that requires the agreement of the EU, rubber stamped by its 27 member nations.

Best thing we could have done was to leave completely as fast as possible and only then attempt to negotiate mutually beneficial deals. Confusing the leaving process with what comes after leaving has led to much uncertainty - and businesses hate uncertainty.

 

[ceptimus]

But everyone was quite clear on what leaving the EU would mean before they voted.

Yes. As clear as any voter ever is in any election or referendum.

 

[ceptimus]

Remain supporters would clearly wish that in any future referendum, there must be a clause that states, "Unless you have omniscient knowledge of what the future holds, you must vote the way we tell you to."

 

[Mr Fied]

That we would leave the EU - we would no longer be a member nation of the EU. EU rules and regulations would cease to apply in the UK. We would take back control of our borders and our law.

Now any subsequent deal on trade or other matters that might or might not be agreed by the EU once we're no longer a member couldn't be promised by anyone - as clearly that requires the agreement of the EU, rubber stamped by its 27 member nations.

Best thing we could have done was to leave completely as fast as possible and only then attempt to negotiate mutually beneficial deals. Confusing the leaving process with what comes after leaving has led to much uncertainty - and businesses hate uncertainty.

We already had control of our borders and law.

It was our democratically elected governments that chose to agree to belong in the free movement area.

Don't forget, by definition the vast majority of illegal immigrants are from outside the EU.

It was our democratically elected governments that agreed to new EU laws being implemented, if they didn't agree they had the power of veto.

So because certain people didn't agree with the outcome of democratic elections they wish to overturn those decisions.

As I have stated before, I do not wish to overturn the refrendum result, I just think the referendum should never have been held in the first place until the full consequences were made known and a fair vote held.

 

[Mr Fied]

Remain supporters would clearly wish that in any future referendum, there must be a clause that states, "Unless you have omniscient knowledge of what the future holds, you must vote the way we tell you to."

Or at least be upfront and honest.

Are we planning to remain in the single market?

Will we seek to remain in the customs union?

What will our future immigration policy be?

What are the rights likely to be for EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU?

What will happen to the reciprocal health agreement?

 

[ceptimus]

We already had control of our borders and law.

It was our democratically elected governments that chose to agree to belong in the free movement area.

Don't forget, by definition the vast majority of illegal immigrants are from outside the EU.

It was our democratically elected governments that agreed to new EU laws being implemented, if they didn't agree they had the power of veto.

So because certain people didn't agree with the outcome of democratic elections they wish to overturn those decisions.

As I have stated before, I do not wish to overturn the refrendum result, I just think the referendum should never have been held in the first place until the full consequences were made known and a fair vote held.

You forget that it was a democratically elected government that decided to put the matter of EU membership to a referendum, and promised to implement whatever the people voted for.

 

[ceptimus]

Or at least be upfront and honest.

Are we planning to remain in the single market?

No. The single market is part of the EU. We voted to leave the EU.

Will we seek to remain in the customs union?

No. The customs union is an EU thing, and if we were a member of it we would still be subject to EU regulations and we wouldn't be allowed to make independent trade deals. Not what we voted for.

What will our future immigration policy be?

The same rules will apply to immigrants from the EU as apply to immigrants from outside the EU.

What are the rights likely to be for EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU?

This is a matter for negotiation once we've left the EU. The leave campaigners couldn't give promises on this without knowing in advance what the EU might be prepared to offer. You will remember that right from the outset of "negotiations", the UK was offering a deal whereby EU citizens living in the UK would keep their rights providing that UK citizens living in the EU were offered reciprocal rights. The EU weren't prepared to discuss this until "sufficient progress" was made on other matters (how much money we were prepared to offer them, basically).

What will happen to the reciprocal health agreement?

Again, leave couldn't make promises on a matter that requires negotiation and agreement by the EU. Leave campaigners were not omniscient mind readers.

 

[Mr Fied]

No. The single market is part of the EU. We voted to leave the EU.

“Our trade will almost certainly continue with the EU on similar to current circumstances…The reality is that the hard-headed, pragmatic businessmen on the continent will do everything to ensure that trade with Britain continues uninterrupted.” David Davis, speech, 26 May 2016

“there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market”, Boris Johnson, The Telegraph, 26 June 2016

"It should be win-win for us and it will be if we vote to leave and we can maintain free trade, stop sending money and also have control of our borders", Michael Gove, BBC, 8 May 2016

“Nor is there any prospect of security checks returning to the border. The common travel area between the UK and Ireland predates our EU membership and will outlast it. The unique status Irish citizens are accorded in the UK predates EU membership and will outlast it. There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.” Theresa Villiers, Vote Leave press releases, 14 April 2016

“The right of Irish citizens to enter, reside and work in the UK is already enshrined in our law. This will be entirely unaffected by a vote to leave on 23 June.” Vote Leave press release, 1 June 2016

 

[Mr Fied]

This is a matter for negotiation once we've left the EU. The leave campaigners couldn't give promises on this without knowing in advance what the EU might be prepared to offer. You will remember that right from the outset of "negotiations", the UK was offering a deal whereby EU citizens living in the UK would keep their rights providing that UK citizens living in the EU were offered reciprocal rights. The EU weren't prepared to discuss this until "sufficient progress" was made on other matters (how much money we were prepared to offer them, basically).

“There will be no change for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. These EU citizens will automatically be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK and will be treated no less favourably than they are at present”. Statement by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart, 1 June 2016

 

[ceptimus]

These are very old arguments. Access to the single market is not the same thing as membership of the single market. Every country, for example Brazil, has access to the single market.

The statements about Ireland still apply today. The EU is threatening to erect hard borders around Ireland. That is a matter for them.

The offer by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart was very generous. Note that the EU did not reciprocate with such a generous offer for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK offer is now official UK government policy. EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK need have no fear about their right to remain here.

 

[GlennB]

The offer by Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and Gisela Stuart was very generous. Note that the EU did not reciprocate with such a generous offer for UK citizens living in the EU.

Those people were in no position to make such an offer. Only parliament could, and they were not parliament. They were empty words, if they ever spoke them at all.

The UK offer is now official UK government policy. EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK need have no fear about their right to remain here.

I hope you're right. Do you have a source for the claim? Was it agreed by parliament? Policy <> law

 

[ceptimus]

I hope you're right. Do you have a source for the claim? Was it agreed by parliament? Policy <> law

I am not a lawyer but this official government website seems to indicate that EU citizens already living lawfully in the UK need not worry.

 

[GlennB]

I am not a lawyer but this official government website seems to indicate that EU citizens already living lawfully in the UK need not worry.

From that:

"The rights of EU citizens and their families living in the UK will not change until 1 January 2021.
People who are living in the UK by 31 December 2020 will have until 30 June 2021 to make an application for status under the scheme.

From 1 July 2021, EU citizens and their family members in the UK must hold or have applied for UK immigration status to be here legally."

ffs

Let's hope this works out better than Windrush - those other immigrant people whose rights were enshrined in law - eh?

"More French people live in London than in Bordeaux, Nantes or Strasbourg and some now regard it as France's sixth biggest city in terms of population."

Good luck expecting the overstretched incompetents at the Home Office to cope with that (though, to be fair, many* will have buggered off before it becomes an issue. including the professionals

(eta: *the French, not the twats at the Home Office)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Every election 'some' people vote for politicians based on promises they have made that they don't keep.

Should all election results be overturned when this happens?

If not, what would you like to see happen regarding brexit?

Normally when politicians renege on their promises they are hauled over the coals and people get quite annoyed at them. It's only in the Brexit parallel universe where I have ever seen people just insist that all politicians lie and we shouldn't be bothered by it. Or worse still...insist that they didn't really mean what they said in the first place and everyone knew they actually meant something else.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Every election 'some' people vote for politicians based on promises they have made that they don't keep.

Should all election results be overturned when this happens?

If not, what would you like to see happen regarding brexit?

It's weak to ask for a rematch when you've lost the game. You should at least wait until the prize for the first match has been delivered before expecting another try.

We had to wait forty years between the first and second EU referendums. Maybe it doesn't need to be that long before a third - perhaps ten years would do; certainly not until at least five years after the completion of implementing the previous referendum decision - which might take until 2021 or later on current plans.

Even if the majority of people no longer wish for the referendum result to be implemented?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The statements about Ireland still apply today. The EU is threatening to erect hard borders around Ireland. That is a matter for them.

You either don't understand this issue or are wilfully lying about it because you know it holes your boat below the waterline.

Leaving the EU requires a hard border between Ireland and the UK unless we reach an agreement with the EU otherwise. Your proposed way forward ensures that a hard border exists and the terms of the GFA are broken. Whether the DUP will come along for that ride remains to be seen and would therefore jeopardise the ability of the Government to enact ANY legislation regarding leaving the EU.

This is why we generally have experts to deal with such things because if we left the details to Brexiteers we'd end up... well in exactly the shambles we have now thanks to Double D Bojo and the Victorian slum landlord.

 

[Spanx]

The confusion is engendered by remain supporters arguing that 'leave' doesn't really mean leave - it only means 'partly leave'. They apparently have no problem understanding what 'remain' meant, so they might get a clearer picture of what the public voted for by thinking of the two options offered as 'remain' and 'not remain'.

I think you will find that the negotiations are between the UK and the EU. MPs can argue amongst themselves all day and all night but it won't make the slightest diffence if they don't come to an agreement with the EU.

If the EU don't want to change their rules to fit around a third country it's not the remainers fault. The only people at blame are the ones that planted the seed that the EU will change to fit around the UK when we are a third country.

It will be interesting to see how our new trade deals work out if other countries don't agree to our demands. Who will be blamed if they don't go as planned? The blame won't be put on the remainers because we will have left by then.

 

[The Don]

You either don't understand this issue or are wilfully lying about it because you know it holes your boat below the waterline.

I think ceptimus is saying that the UK announces that, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it won't be erecting a hard border between NI and Ireland and neither will there be one between NI and the rest of the UK.

It will therefore be entirely the EU's fault if there's a hard border.

Of course that completely ignores the problem of how we stop people flooding into the UK over that open border and how we stop contraband coming in but I suppose like everything else, Brexiteers will insist that it's the other party's responsibility to address that issue - the UK has don its part by ensuring that it hasn't implemented a hard border (and that it's Ireland's job to ensure that Romanians don't get into the UK).

 

[Lothian]

I think ceptimus is saying that the UK announces that, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, it won't be erecting a hard border between NI and Ireland .....

I doubt he would say that. If the leave campaign had one headline issue it was "Take back control of our borders". People did not vote leave to have no control whatsoever over who comes and goes into the the UK.

 

[The Don]

I doubt he would say that. If the leave campaign had one headline issue it was "Take back control of our borders". People did not vote leave to have no control whatsoever over who comes and goes into the the UK.

From part-4 of this thread:

No deal might well create a hard border, but the UK government could argue, "We've not created the hard border - it is the EU side that's done that."

If that situation does arise, it will be interesting to see who actually builds the EU's hard border infrastructure, and who pays for it. The Irish government has insisted that it doesn't want a hard border, but it might well be forced by the EU to build it and fund much of the cost in the event of a no deal Brexit.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12327137#post12327137