TERFs crash London Pride

[Lithrael]

Just for the record, I do consider myself feminist, just not bury-the-needle feminist. [SNIP] If typical MRAs were more like him I would not feel like side-eyeing people who choose that crowd to throw in with. And yes it does bother me that many feminists don’t care about any men’s issues, though I also know many feminists who care more about problems men face such as abuse, difficulty accessing help, pressures of hyper conformity, etc, than the typical guy on the street does.

In any event it seems clear to me that trans women have it tough at best and deadly dangerous at worst. I feel like they deserve my support. And I don’t feel like any serious numbers of cis guys are really out there champing at the bit for a chance to get in women’s spaces by faking trans. Oh, I hear guys say “I would have said I was a girl in a flash to get in the ladies’ room in high school!” but I don’t believe it for a second. It sounds just like “if it wasn’t for religion I could do anything I felt like!”

On topic, I don’t understand where the idea is coming from that people need no more than assert they’re transgender to get full gender privileges across the board. I thought ‘you should accept a person’s assertion of gender without question’ was meant to apply to things like how you address people politely in public, rather than to situations that could get particularly threatening or litigious. I just know talk radio claims it a lot.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12

 

[pharphis]

Seems the case, but we'll see...



Who says that they could be easily exploited?

Maybe you're right, I don't know.

Maybe the trans person could have an official letter written by a doctor or something which can be shown to an HR department of a public gymnasium, for example, so that they can demonstrate to the proper persons in charge that they are attempting to do their best at living the life of their non-birth gender and that they can therefore have full access to the changing rooms that they then need.

The rest of the patrons would have to understand that the transperson would have done this and thus have legitimacy to be there and if they don't like it, they may go elsewhere. The transperson would not have any burden to show this to any other patron.

For public restrooms where this sort of thing is not feasible, well... they all have privacy stalls, so that won't be an issue.

What's your potential solution?



Are you?



That problem will hurt women? I didn't ask about women, though, did I? You paid mere lip-service to "everyone" and then zeroed in on the "real" issue of women — and only women — being infringed upon when that's not the case.

If you really cared about this being about gender equality you have a very strange way of demonstrating it.




LOL What a crock.



Because it is.



The "feminist viewpoint" is the ONLY POV being presented here, most notably by you and JihadJane (now I can understand which "jihad" she's apparently on). You have attempted to shout down, belittle and shame any other POV and then try and claim any other POV besides your precious feminist one is "misogyny." I suppose it helps to prevent others from calling you out on your misandry and sexism because they're afraid of being called anti-feminist but thankfully, not everyone who gets beaten by the misogyny stick will stay silent.




The more I read and discover, the more willing I am of being one of those demonized MRA's.
I think that if we're all wanting equal rights for each gender, I go one further and say we all need equal rights for all genders. I also think that if a trans person does everything within their power to live a life as fully as they can to fit in with their chosen gender rather than birth gender, then we should respect that.

FWIW if you look at my thread history you will see my own transformation from ? to non-feminist to anti-feminist to MRA (I've always also been a WRA). The reason being that I care about equality under the law, and that imo feminists not only largely focus on only one side (not necessarily a bad thing, if you're careful) but that they actually make things actively worse for men and boys (and sometimes women and girls). That goes for those in power and academia, mostly. I'd chalk up the bulk of the remaining feminists as being ignorant or apathetic to men and boys.

Sadly, I think most MRAs are egalitarians who have been pushed to the MRA label by rejection and dismissal by feminists. I was accused of being an MRA years before I ever adopted the label and years before I even thought men have real issues.

(reminder: feminist /= woman, egalitarian /= feminist, and that most people value gender equality but don't identify as feminist... in case someone wants to throw the dictionary at me as a defense)

ok I'll stop being off-topic now.

 

[pharphis]

Just for the record, I do consider myself feminist, just not bury-the-needle feminist. [SNIP] If typical MRAs were more like him I would not feel like side-eyeing people who choose that crowd to throw in with. And yes it does bother me that many feminists don’t care about any men’s issues, though I also know many feminists who care more about problems men face such as abuse, difficulty accessing help, pressures of hyper conformity, etc, than the typical guy on the street does.

On topic, I don’t understand where the idea is coming from that people need no more than assert they’re transgender to get full gender privileges across the board. I thought ‘you should accept a person’s assertion of gender without question’ was meant to apply to things like how you address people politely in public, rather than to situations that could get particularly threatening or litigious. I just know talk radio claims it a lot.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12

Yeah I think I do as well. I think this time it's because I challenged the idea that this alleged problem of male perverts is due to "male entitlement". Even if you think trans activism has gone too far I think that explanation/label is way off mark

 

[pharphis]

FWIW if you look at my thread history you will see my own transformation from ? to non-feminist to anti-feminist to MRA (I've always also been a WRA). The reason being that I care about equality under the law, and that imo feminists not only largely focus on only one side (not necessarily a bad thing, if you're careful) but that they actually make things actively worse for men and boys (and sometimes women and girls). That goes for those in power and academia, mostly. I'd chalk up the bulk of the remaining feminists as being ignorant or apathetic to men and boys.
Sadly, I think most MRAs are egalitarians who have been pushed to the MRA label by rejection and dismissal by feminists. I was accused of being an MRA years before I ever adopted the label and years before I even thought men have real issues.

(reminder: feminist /= woman, egalitarian /= feminist, and that most people value gender equality but don't identify as feminist... in case someone wants to throw the dictionary at me as a defense)

ok I'll stop being off-topic now.

Sorry but I forgot a major group: People who just don't want to give up a label. I don't want to exclude them from my "bulk of feminists" because I do think they make up a decent size of them. I do truly think the man-haters aren't usually the average people who call themselves feminists.

 

[The Norseman]

FWIW if you look at my thread history you will see my own transformation from ? to non-feminist to anti-feminist to MRA (I've always also been a WRA). The reason being that I care about equality under the law, and that imo feminists not only largely focus on only one side (not necessarily a bad thing, if you're careful) but that they actually make things actively worse for men and boys (and sometimes women and girls). That goes for those in power and academia, mostly. I'd chalk up the bulk of the remaining feminists as being ignorant or apathetic to men and boys.

I tend to think this is what is now commonly known as "third wave feminism" or "radical feminism" but I don't know. I do know my mom and dad were active in the early-ish days of feminism (the 60's and 70's) and my 22 yo daughter claims to be feminist, but I cringe at hearing that and in my household when I claimed a few years ago to not self-identify as feminist but rather as humanist, they were aghast. I think my mom has been so out of touch of what feminism has become that she'd never even recognize it and I think my daughter has grown up with a very toxic version of it, though thankfully, she still is very much pro-LGBTQ and is currently roommates with a gay (male) couple as a matter of fact. Which I think is pretty cool.

When I was in my twenties (about twenty years ago) I was against marriage. I was against the state-bestowed rights that are benefitting married couples far more than single people but I had no clue of any kind of movement or "thing" that may have existed then (if it even did).

I White Knighted a woman, however, she "talked me into" getting married and raked me over the coals when I had to file for divorce when it came down to me not being able to put up with her abuse.

I've since learned quite a bit more and have decided that if I believe everyone deserves equal rights then that applies to everyone and I need to begin acting on my beliefs. So I've marched at my state capitol for campaigns such as "Add the Words" and so on to show support to those who are being marginalized such as gay couples who wish to be married. I am neither gay nor wanting marriage, yet if I can support those people then I certainly can and should support what I am. Which is a man, first and foremost and that it should not be a ******* crime to be able to simply say that I have inherent worth, just like everyone else.

Sadly, I think most MRAs are egalitarians who have been pushed to the MRA label by rejection and dismissal by feminists. I was accused of being an MRA years before I ever adopted the label and years before I even thought men have real issues.

(reminder: feminist /= woman, egalitarian /= feminist, and that most people value gender equality but don't identify as feminist... in case someone wants to throw the dictionary at me as a defense)

ok I'll stop being off-topic now.

Well, I dove into the deep end and am trying to sort out who's who and what's what about MGTOW versus MRA for example and find that as long as I reasonably can accept the fundamentals of those groups, I can comfortably self-identify with those groups.

I shall now conclude my partially off-topic response.

 

[ProBonoShill]

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...errer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s

Wow, that story really resonates with me.

I remember way back when a black guy stuck a gun to my temple and forced me to give him all my money.

A few years later I showed up at my college dorm and to find out I had a black roomate.

He was a big dude, tall and muscular, listened to gangsta rap really loud, wore a hoodie and had a poster above his bed of Tupac smoking a joint while holding a gun.

I was scared to death!!

I complained to the dorm manager and who was kind enough to expel the worthless thug. I mean he hadn't really done anything wrong, but we all knew it was just a matter of time.

Of course none of the above happened but it's just as idiotic as the link you posted.

 

[Elagabalus]

I'm booked in a youth hostel on Friday night. I booked a bunk in a 6-bed female dormitory. If one or more of the other occupants of that dormitory turns out to be a man, I suppose I'm bigoted if I object...?

Please, feel free to give us a minute by minute update to your ensuing non story. The fear is palpable.

 

[JihadJane]

Why would that be important? Im not the arbiter of anything.

If someone tells me they are a woman and would like to be treated as such then Im happy to do so unless I have good reason not to.

What if they are actually men?

When it comes to transphobia i have a reasonable way to spot it. i simply replace the trans word with black or Muslim and see if it would be consider racist. And pretty much always it would.

Are you also unwilling to to give definitions of the words "black" and "Muslim"?

What does the word "black" mean?

What does the word "Muslim" mean?

What does the word "woman" mean?

i have asked otherwise sensible people to tell me why this is different. what real issues there are and how they could be addressed better in a way that accomodates both groups and all i got in return was told im a misogynist for even asking.

so i no longer think those people are arguing in good faith. they simply want to exclude transpeople for reasons of bigotry as far as i can see

I'm not arguing. I'm asking for your definition of the word "woman".

It's important because men are claiming they can be women simply by saying they are women and demanding to be covered by laws designed to protect women.

People who claim transwomen are women are notorious for never giving a definition of the word woman (it's not up for debate, apparently). I'm interested in your definition of the word WOMAN.

What is your definition of the word woman? Why is it such a hard question to answer?

Anyone else is also welcome to answer this question.

 

[zooterkin]

People who claim transwomen are men are notorious for never giving a definition of the word woman .

Is that what you meant to say?

 

[JihadJane]

Yup. And there were disagreements I could have made with some things you argued, but as you indicate in 2, it was leading off topic. The idea that we all agree even on the same 'side' is as wrong as the idea that it's MRA's disagreeing.

And the idea that it's the 'feminists' view to agree with the trans excluding posters. That's false, and obviously so. There are many feminists, including radical ones, who are trans-inclusive. They are targeted by TERF threats a lot.

My disagreements with the trans-excluding are based on mainly on feminists views. They can deny that all they like but it's the truth. It is not inherently pro male, even if I recognize the misandry in some of their views.

Here is a marvelous takedown of much the TERF arguments, and those arguments have been made here too. The citations are important and good too. One has the author of the Swedish study often cited by the anti-trans brigade (including Rolfe in another thread) showing exactly how they are misusing the study. It should be interesting to many in the thread.

As noted upthread, there are many parallels with the far right, but the one I don't think was pointed out was that on top of the language control stuff is the 'rebranding'. 'We aren't white supremacists or Nazis, we're alt right', is paralleled by 'We aren't TERFs, we're gender critical'.

I am asking you again, what is your definition of the word "woman", tyr_13?

 

[JihadJane]

Is that what you meant to say?

No.Thanks.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I missed this response yesterday but see my previous response that I'm not too concerned about actual transgender persons. And by 'spaces' I mean ALL spaces.

Women-only spaces also include programs, grants, and scholarships to boost female participation in sports and STEM fields. What is the criteria for applying for these?

e.g. Male person applies for female scholarship in engineering. Claims he is 'really a woman'. Is there any other criteria other than what he claims to be? Is there any check beyond taking their word for it on the application? Is it really bigoted to question this persons gender?

I don't know how many would 'game the system' but if it's as easy as checking a box or making a statement, I predict we will have a problem. And that problem will hurt women AND actual trans persons.

You know Soul Brother is not a documentary right? But shure keep the trans people out of STEM.

 

[ponderingturtle]

In any event it seems clear to me that trans women have it tough at best and deadly dangerous at worst. I feel like they deserve my support. And I don’t feel like any serious numbers of cis guys are really out there champing at the bit for a chance to get in women’s spaces by faking trans. Oh, I hear guys say “I would have said I was a girl in a flash to get in the ladies’ room in high school!” but I don’t believe it for a second. It sounds just like “if it wasn’t for religion I could do anything I felt like!”

I tend to take it at face value that they are sexual predators, but it seems a really weird way to listen to them about how to prevent them from offending.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

What if they are actually men?

What's your definition of man?

I honestly don't really care, if they aren't hurting anyone. Why should I?

 

[JihadJane]

What's your definition of man?

I honestly don't really care, if they aren't hurting anyone. Why should I?

Man: Human adult male.

What's your definition of the word 'woman'?

 

[luchog]

The men's rights activists dominating this thread will dismiss this twitter thread as "terf bigotry", but readers who are

Yet another tactic of the far right adopted by the radical fringe. Use a specious association with a hated group to tar all opponents, regardless of the validity or lack thereof.

Accusing feminists of being MRAs is not a new one to me, unfortunately, but it's strange to see it coming from this source. Given that, however, I fully expect a No True Scotsman to be next.

Here's another specific example of a male intruding into a women's protected space and causing alarm and discomfort. Or possibly a bigot woman who should just have got on with showering and changing while being leered at through a mirror by an angelic "transwoman" who only wanted to spend an hour putting on makeup.

https://genderidentitywatch.com/2018/07/31/mrs-h-v-planet-fitness-usa-planetfitness/

Yeah, let's get our news on transpeople from a hyper-partisan, rabidly anti-trans hate site. Do you get your news on racial relations from Stormwatch?

For someone wanting a more balanced view of the incident, here's a link to an actual mainstream news source: https://www.wftv.com/news/local/tra...ot-going-to-be-made-into-a-monster-/804547730

For anyone who isn't familiar with GenderIdentityWatch and its founder Cathy Brennan, she's a fanatical anti-trans crusader and conspiracy theorist who has petitioned governments to refuse to recognize trans identity, and has committed illegal and unethical acts to harass transpeople and doctors performing SRS. She has even joined with Religious Right anti-gay organization Pacific Justice Institute to harass a suicidal teenager. Harassment she still maintains to this day, despite the PJI acknowledging that it fabricated the story that it and Brennan used as justification for attacking the teen and trying to get her to commit suicide.

Some more info on that incident: https://thinkprogress.org/anti-lgbt...nt-harassing-classmates-updated-d66f40c01517/

Remember what I said earlier about the radical fringe making common cause with the far-right? Yeah.

She and her supporters engage in all manner of conspiracy theorizing, and outright lies and fabrications, to support and justify their attacks on transpeople and trans supporters.

Anyone interested in more info on Brennan and her group:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cathy_Brennan

Even other anti-trans activists are starting to distance themselves from her. Certainly a great deal of the mainstream feminist community already has.

Here is a marvelous takedown of much the TERF arguments, and those arguments have been made here too. The citations are important and good too. One has the author of the Swedish study often cited by the anti-trans brigade (including Rolfe in another thread) showing exactly how they are misusing the study. It should be interesting to many in the thread.

The issue of transpeople is one that is still controversial in the feminist movement, but the trend is toward increasing acceptance among the mainstream.

Brennan and her ilk sometimes pay lip service to this when conversing with those more mainstream entities that they are trying to win over, or who they think should be natural allies and supporters, such as her mealy-mouthed resort to "separate but equal" rhetoric when discussing the issues of transactivism with mainstream outlets like Bustle.

But she and her supporters' tendency resort to outright lies and fabrications, as well as collaborating with Religious Right hate groups, has pushed away not only mainstream feminists, but also others on the radical fringe, who she has also attacked from time to time.

As noted upthread, there are many parallels with the far right, but the one I don't think was pointed out was that on top of the language control stuff is the 'rebranding'. 'We aren't white supremacists or Nazis, we're alt right', is paralleled by 'We aren't TERFs, we're gender critical'.

Re-branding is a propaganda technique beloved by authoritarians of all stripes.

 

[luchog]

The "feminist viewpoint" is the ONLY POV being presented here, most notably by you and JihadJane (now I can understand which "jihad" she's apparently on). You have attempted to shout down, belittle and shame any other POV and then try and claim any other POV besides your precious feminist one is "misogyny." I suppose it helps to prevent others from calling you out on your misandry and sexism because they're afraid of being called anti-feminist but thankfully, not everyone who gets beaten by the misogyny stick will stay silent.

The "feminist viewpoint" is not being provided by Rolfe or JihadJane. The bulk of mainstream feminism is actually inclusive of transpeople, despite the controversy, and growing increasingly so. It's only the radical fringes that are so frothingly anti-trans. They do not represent the mainstream despite their repeated attempts to paint themselves as such. Their viewpoint has much more in common with the Religious Right than with liberal feminism, putting them back in the same place they were in the '80s when they made common cause with Religious Right organizations in an attempt to outlaw pornography. They have a long history of collaborating with groups who should be their natural enemies.

In any event it seems clear to me that trans women have it tough at best and deadly dangerous at worst.

Yeah, it's frightening when people like Brennan and GenderIdentityWatch spew their hatred so openly and loudly, at a time when murders of transpeople, especially transpeople of colour, have been rapidly rising for several years.

 

[Rolfe]

So, we substitute what is said to be a partisan account of the affair with another account which is purely the transwoman's narrative.

This out today. No doubt this is another unacceptable source. However, I post the link for those who haven't wholly swallowed the trans-activist movement's narrative to look at.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/06...ender-101-local-library/#.W2hz8UBBM-Q.twitter

 

[Arcade22]

For anyone who isn't familiar with GenderIdentityWatch and its founder Cathy Brennan, she's a fanatical anti-trans crusader and conspiracy theorist who has petitioned governments to refuse to recognize trans identity, and has committed illegal and unethical acts to harass transpeople and doctors performing SRS. She has even joined with Religious Right anti-gay organization Pacific Justice Institute to harass a suicidal teenager. Harassment she still maintains to this day, despite the PJI acknowledging that it fabricated the story that it and Brennan used as justification for attacking the teen and trying to get her to commit suicide.

I think it's extremely telling that much of Rolfe's and JihadJane's arguments and style of discourse is very similar to, if not the same as, the kind used by people with far-right anti-LGBT views. It wouldn't be surprising to hear the same kind of hateful diatribe coming from a religious zealot or far-right reactionary.

 

[luchog]

This out today. No doubt this is another unacceptable source. However, I post the link for those who haven't wholly swallowed the trans-activist movement's narrative to look at.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/06...ender-101-local-library/#.W2hz8UBBM-Q.twitter

The Federalist? Really? Remember what I said about the radicals making common cause with the Religious Right? See below.

I think it's extremely telling that much of Rolfe's and JihadJane's arguments and style of discourse is very similar to, if not the same as, the kind used by people with far-right anti-LGBT views. It wouldn't be surprising to hear the same kind of hateful diatribe coming from a religious zealot or far-right reactionary.

Well, yeah, it's hardly anything new. Back in the 1980s, the radical fringe feminists worked hand-in-hand with the Religious Right to try and outlaw or suppress the publishing of pornographic materials, even mainstream pornographic materials like Playboy magazine. It was rather strange to watch that, given that the right at that time was also working hard to suppress rights for women as well, and had just managed a successful campaign to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment.

But as you can see from Rolfe's post above, they did not learn from that, and are still perfectly happy to get in bed with the Religious Right where their interests in marginalizing other groups overlap.

Rolfe, as quoted above, presents an article from The Federalist as though it's supposedly an unbiased news source. The problem with that is that The Federalist is a well-known hardline Religious Right propaganda publication, known for it's profoundly anti-LGTBQ stance, as well as its anti-feminism, its racism, its promotion of various right-wing conspiracy theories, and more recently its strong pro-Trump editorializing. It was also one of the few large publications that defended Roy Moore's sexual harassment and molestation of underage girls.

So, looks like the so-called "feminist" radical fringe is more than willing to team up with anti-feminist, anti-LGBTQ Religious Right organizations, so long as they are also engaged in oppressing and marginalizing the same folks that the radical fringe pseudo-feminists want oppressed and marginalized. One only needs to substitute "gay" or "lesbian" in place of much of the TERF rhetoric, and said rhetoric could have come directly out of any Religious Right propaganda organ.

It just goes to show how utterly and completely and thoroughly morally and ethically bankrupt the TERF ideology is. One wonders just how far they'll go to promote their twisted, exclusionary ideology.