Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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Well, if lack of EU staff in the NHS and social care leads to suffering and possible death then, yes, I'd say it matters a lot. You? Do you think it matters?

If lack of EU medicines leads to suffering then ... ditto.
Ditto food shortages, or nuclear fuel shortages. And businesses shafted because they can't operate in the EU.



They are beginning to happen fast, and predictably so. When they all happen to the max will you 'fess up and say 'Yeah, my vote enabled that. Sorry mate.'?

Will you happily stand in the 2-hour queue for entry to the EU and say "It was worth it"?

You're coming across as a troll, so far. Try addressing the substance of arguments if you're not.

What I see is yet more scare stories.

Loads of them before the referendum and they STILL continue now.

Read ceptimus' post further up the page, he articulates it better than I can.
 
Most of the 'bad outcomes' at the moment are due to uncertainty about what will happen. That uncertainty is being stoked by both the EU delaying negotiations, and remain supporters agitating for a rematch because they lost. We'll have to weather the storm until Brexit day, ride out the immediate turmoil and then see how things pan out once the uncertainty has been removed.

We have yet to tell the EU wtf we want. The government is in a permanent internal fight trying to establish exactly that. Did you miss that? Our fault, not theirs.

Change is hard, but we shouldn't be afraid of it.

When you can't even define what 'change' means then maybe you should be at least a little bit nervous? 'Change' includes losing your left foot in a car crash, so enough of the platitudes eh?
 
If you voted remain you also didn't know what you were voting for. No one can predict the future. Granted, leaving is more of a change in the short term than remaining.

Remainers are trying to blame leavers for not being able to predict the future, Remainers simultaneously attempt to block whatever future the leavers attempt to plan, and talk down those plans.

Remainers need to wait and see what the outcome of Brexit actually is. It probably won't be as bad as they currently fear. Remember that for all those committed to blocking or watering down Brexit, their best (only?) tactic is to try and paint the outcome of Brexit in as bad a light as possible. Remember that these are only predictions of what might happen unless things change. All their previous predictions have proved wrong.

Remain confidently asserted that by now (not after Brexit but now) we would have a recession, increased unemployment, falling house prices, probably other bad things I've forgotten at the moment - and all these predictions are the reverse of what has happened.

Remain supporters on here use weasel words to claim that the predictions never actually meant anything - but the people making the predictions never said that at the time. They asserted their predictions almost as if they were proven fact. Remember their woeful predictive record when assessing their current predictions. No doubt when they turn out to be wrong the remain apologists will try to argue that, "they only said that these things would happen if X didn't happen - and of course X has happened." If that were really the case they should be telling us now what forms X might take and taking action to ensure that it does happen.

At the same time you could argue that leave voters don't know what Brexit will bring. But there is no shortage of leave voters blaming remainers and the EU for punishing us.
 
What I see is yet more scare stories.

Loads of them before the referendum and they STILL continue now.

No. Reality is already kicking in, it's not just 'scare stories'. That the NHS is losing staff from EU countries is real. The plunge in the exchange rate is real. etc etc
 
No. Reality is already kicking in, it's not just 'scare stories'. That the NHS is losing staff from EU countries is real. The plunge in the exchange rate is real. etc etc

So, what would you like to see happen regarding the referendum result?
 
We have yet to tell the EU wtf we want. The government is in a permanent internal fight trying to establish exactly that. Did you miss that? Our fault, not theirs.



When you can't even define what 'change' means then maybe you should be at least a little bit nervous? 'Change' includes losing your left foot in a car crash, so enough of the platitudes eh?
We told the EU what we wanted right at the outset. We want a free trading agreement covering goods and services. They're not prepared to offer that, of course, and ever since we have been in an endless cycle of the UK government asking for a watered-down set of their previous request and the EU saying, 'non'. If you've read these threads, you'll know that for years I've said that the 'negotiations' are a waste of time and prolong the uncertainty: I advocated walking away from these pointless 'negotiations' right after Article 50 was triggered.

'Change' also includes everything else, such as winning the lottery, or not losing any of your appendages in a car crash. You already knew that, but following the project fear scare story method, you had to post a really bad example of what 'change' could mean.
 
Yeah "that guy" is a retired British ex-pat living in Greece. He has a lot of concerns about Brexit not least:

- Will he still be allowed to live in Greece
- What healthcare provisions will there be
- How will his pension be treated

The shambolic mess which is the UK government is doing nothing to assuage those concerns.

I too am concerned. I own a services business which currently helps to redress the UK balance of trade to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. A Brexit which doesn't allow services to be sold on the current basis will likely have us going out of business entirely.

Thanks for your continued support there, it's noticed and much appreciated ;)

But, really, our personal worries are a small part of my anger. We have some capital, a house we could sell, and a fair income from pensions. Even the worst outcome sees us managing fine. Pack the parrot in a shoe box, jump in a plane and rent somewhere. Do parrots show up on the x-ray machines? :D

Our daughter's work, though, might well die a death, Yours might be wrecked, I gather. Then there's the swathe of detailed hassles - some critical - that people have been talking about throughout this thread. One person here actually fears for the delivery of potentially life-saving meds. Then Brexiteers tell us not to fear change, and that it's all down to EU intransigence? Eh, what??? I think the phrase is "cognitive dissonance". How can people reconcile the reality with their desire about what reality should look like? It's scary. Trumpian, in fact.
 
Yeah that person is me. But at best it will just give me a few more years, so I'll be out of the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

Of far more concern to me are the people who will remain behind. Main example, my son.

He's just finished his masters, actually starts his first full time, in field (engineering) job on Monday. So many possibilities, so much potential, so stupid to limit the future of a whole country due to nothing, IMHO, except xenophobia.
 
Yeah that person is me. But at best it will just give me a few more years, so I'll be out of the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

Of far more concern to me are the people who will remain behind. Main example, my son.

He's just finished his masters, actually starts his first full time, in field (engineering) job on Monday. So many possibilities, so much potential, so stupid to limit the future of a whole country due to nothing, IMHO, except xenophobia.

Yes.

52% of the UK are xenophobic.
 
Remainers are still so upset about losing a referendum.
To quote Gerald the Gorilla, wild? I' was livid




A bunch of xenophobic fools are, to quote a colleague indulging "in one of the most extreme cases of collective self harm in British history" and damaging my kids' futures whilst also hurting immigrants based on lies and Russian interference and I am supposed to be happy?


I thought that remain voters were spoiling the win of leave voters :D

Or is it just a case of leave voters not getting the prize that they thought they had voted for.

Indeed - and the trio of Brexiteers have had nearly two years to oarrange their vision and got nowhere. Now May has taken a bit more control, and proposed something that is still non-viable, but with hints of reality.

OK, but the decline if EU NHS staff is not a prediction. The drop in the exchange rate is not a prediction. They're facts. If Brits end up in the 2-hour queue at EU airports that will also be a fact, as will shortages of EU medicines and difficulty in refuelling our nuclear power plants .

At what point will you stop blaming Project Fear for things that actually happen? Things that are out of the control of remainers? When will you accept responsibility for things that are a direct consequence of Brexit?

Never, it seems, according to your posts here. And your fallback position - already well-established - is that it will all be the fault of the EU in being so difficult. Pathetic. You voted for this oncoming *********.

Indeed, and as has been pointed out, the only reason why there wasn't a major recession was because the Treasury altered its policy.
 
So you don't really care who makes the rules by which you live as long as you can travel?
They're all made by politicians that you voted for, whether town council, MP or MEP.

The emphasis was on trade, with "closer union" being within the area of trade.
No, it was clear it also meant a closer political union. Even Mrs. T was in favour of that.
Medium.com:
“But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives, above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can and indeed must — play our full part in it.” Prime Minister Harold Wilson, 2 May 1967. Source: Hansard
and:
“The community which we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the true sense of that term. It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union and other major economic issues, important though these are — but also as the Paris Summit Meeting has demonstrated, with social issues which affect us all — environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training.” Source: Illustrated London News. Prime Minister Edward Heath, December 1972
and
“Fundamental Feelings; with the ideal and vision of what we could do together if we put as much effort into using our freedom in peacetime as we do to defending it against an obvious foe; with a reasonable examination of the prospects for food, trade and jobs; and with the practical consequences that would arise for Britain if , instead of solving our problems as part of a partnership, we withdrew into the unknown.” Source: Illustrated London News 1975

And from infacts.org:
The “political case” was “paramount”, said Margaret Thatcher. A few years before, Prime Minister Edward Heath had spoken of a “united Europe” and a “European destiny” – and in 1973 he stated in the Illustrated London News that “the Community we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the full sense of that term”, citing the bloc’s ambitions in the field of environmental, social and vocational training policy.
There's lots of more quotes and campaign material from that time over at those links.


Can you explain why it shouldn't be? The UK has existed as a political entity for a fair amount of time
Actually, only since 1801, the union with Ireland (before that, it was GB).

and has generally made decisions to the benefit of the constituents. Whilst there are always minorities who are dissatisfied with the level of control, so far they haven't been sufficiently numerous to cause a split at whatever level they feel appropriate, apart for Eire of course
And India, and Canada, and Australia, and South Africa, and ...

Personally, I have confidence in the UK as the most appropriate level of government for the UK,
The EU employs the principle of subsidiarity, i.e., decisions have to be taken at the appropriate government level.

whilst I have little confidence that decisions made at a continental level by whatever EU majority concensus exists at the time will be to the benefit of the UK, and may well be to the disbenefit of the UK.
The numbers on that point out that the UK has agreed with the great, great majority of the EU's decisions.
 
To quote Gerald the Gorilla, wild? I' was livid

:D

Indeed - and the trio of Brexiteers have had nearly two years to oarrange their vision and got nowhere. Now May has taken a bit more control, and proposed something that is still non-viable, but with hints of reality.
And that proposal (Checkers) has already been scuppered by poisonous amendments from the Brexiteers in the Commons.
 
We told the EU what we wanted right at the outset. We want a free trading agreement covering goods and services. .

No you didn't and no you don't.

The Brexiteers don't want an FTA at all. For example they continued to want the free movement of people between one and only one EU country and the UK. That's not an FTA.

There's many more details like that surrounding what they want on just about every issue.

It's this kind of over-simplified BS that got us here in the first place. An actual FTA would render the UK and Europe on the same terms as say South Korea. But the Brexiteers would not approve of that because they want their cake and to eat it too. Always have.
 
What I see is yet more scare stories.

Loads of them before the referendum and they STILL continue now.

Read ceptimus' post further up the page, he articulates it better than I can.

Facts are not scare stories. EU nationals are leaving the country. Many work in the NHS. That's a fact. You can't just stick your fingers in your ears and say not listening to your scare stories.

This is what many Leaver voted for. The foreigners to leave. So they are. What now?
 
Now Liam Fox (easiest trade deal ever) has said it's 60/40 in favour of a no deal Brexit (which methinks vulture capitalists wanted all along) and it's all Europe's fault. If only they would agree to our mutuality conflicting terms. :rolleyes:
 
I could also reply to this with 'does it matter'.
Do food shortages matter? Hmmm, let me see... Of course those things matter.

But have all of these things happened yet?

They’ve been discussed a lot up thread and they will happen with a no deal Brexit. Now please answer my question. When you voted for Brexit, did those things occur to you as being part of it?
 
Of course!

Just like voters in every general election accept the bad outcomes of the government of the day is down to them.

Those same voters don't get crap thrown at them every day for the way they voted.

Actually, Conservative voters do get crap thrown at them. Also people who voted Remain get crap thrown at them. Don’t think you’re anything special.

In any event, General elections happen every five years, so mistakes can bear rectified. Are you willing to have another referendum on the final deal to be sure we all still want to leave the EU?
 
No you didn't and no you don't.

The Brexiteers don't want an FTA at all. For example they continued to want the free movement of people between one and only one EU country and the UK. That's not an FTA.

There's many more details like that surrounding what they want on just about every issue.

It's this kind of over-simplified BS that got us here in the first place. An actual FTA would render the UK and Europe on the same terms as say South Korea. But the Brexiteers would not approve of that because they want their cake and to eat it too. Always have.

Free trade in goods and services doesn't mean free movement of people. Except to EU fanatics.
 
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