Stand Your Ground Florida, Stand Your Ground

[Thermal]

I would posit that the below makes the above moot.

Yes, the above are sidebar technicalities, mildly interesting standalone discussion. The below is the money shot.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Yes, the above are sidebar technicalities, mildly interesting standalone discussion.

No. They are intentional distractions that aim to derail the entire conversation away from the real issue. Don't let the dog wag the conversation, or something like that.

The below is the money shot.

Agreed.

 

[Thermal]

No. They are intentional distractions that aim to derail the entire conversation away from the real issue. Don't let the dog wag the conversation, or something like that.

I don't know. The OP is the primary topic, but the peripheral idea of what constitutes legitimate self defense is a relevant tangent, and having broader scope can contribute back to the main point. Although I agree that it shouldn't be allowed to become a smoke and mirror move.

 

[Nessie]

I believe I introduced the term schoolyard shove, so a quick clarification:
In mechanics and, I believe, intent, it was a schoolyard or barroom shove. Open hands forcefully struck at chest as a dominance or knock down move. Mc Glocklin walked up to deliver it, and pretty damned slowly. He was no schoolboy, so I'm sure it was hella powerful, but it was no attacking move. Strategically, it makes no sense to push your victim down and away from you.

In the police, we could use an open handed push to make space between us and an aggressor, as justified self defence.

If the push ended up in the other person going to the ground, so be it. You cannot be expected to judge the perfect pressure, you just need to be reasonable, so no full force against a small person.

Your video shows pretty clearly that they are squarelyface to face. This just isn't a blindside. Blindside is the side that you are blind on. Drejka may have been distracted and didn't see the casual strolling approach, but face to face is not a blind side.

...

I agree, it is not accurate to claim it was a blind side.

McGlockton appears to shove Drejka away from his partner, as she has got out the car.

Others coming and going from their cars and the shop are looking over, so Drejka is clearly attracting attention and he is pointing repeatedly at the car/McGlockton's partner.

So why is he not allowed to stand his ground and protect another from a potential attack?

 

[Checkmite]

A couple updates:

Not only do Republican Florida Legislators say the Sheriff was incorrect, even the ******* NRA says the Sheriff was incorrect.

Whatever, quite frankly. This doesn't impress me, because they're pointedly only arguing with the sheriff's characterization of the law, not whether the actual killing in question was protected under that law.

I understand why the people who championed this law hate seeing it publicly characterized as a shoot-whoever-you-want-as-long-as-you-claim-you're-scared-for-your-life man-hunting license; but quite frankly, that's exactly what it is. I think the sheriff is correct in his characterization of the spirit of the Stand Your Ground law.

The Reason article makes a mistake in dismissing the sheriff's "clear and compelling evidence burden" statement here:

Another red herring that Gualtieri repeatedly mentioned was the right of someone who claims he used force in self-defense to a pretrial hearing at which prosecutors must disprove that claim by "clear and convincing evidence," a standard added by the 2017 law. While prosecutors have to make that showing before proceeding with a trial, the standard for making an arrest is still probable cause.

The sheriff seemed less keen on the 2017 revision. "The state attorney has the burden of proof, by clear and convincing evidence, that the defendant, the shooter, is not entitled to Stand Your Ground," he said. "Nowhere else is there anything like this in criminal law….That's a very heavy standard, and it puts the burden on the state." But neither that provision nor the rule allowing victims of public attacks to stand their ground was relevant in deciding whether there was probable cause to arrest Drejka.

Ummm...yeah it's relevant. What is even the point of arresting someone whom there is no reasonable expectation of being able to successfully prosecute? Spite?

 

[The Big Dog]

The contention that they were "squared up" face-to-face and that he shoved him with two hands in the chest is yet another, well lets call it what it was, a bald faced lie.

Folks this is easily proven by the fact the victim goes flying, not straight back, but off to the side.

Just another example of how the facts show that this was pure self defense. I mean, if y'all got make up things to try to stay even with the big dog, why bother?

Case closed.

 

[applecorped]

Don't bring hands to a gunfight

 

[Thermal]

The contention that they were "squared up" face-to-face and that he shoved him with two hands in the chest is yet another, well lets call it what it was, a bald faced lie.

Folks this is easily proven by the fact the victim goes flying, not straight back, but off to the side.

Just another example of how the facts show that this was pure self defense. I mean, if y'all got make up things to try to stay even with the big dog, why bother?

Case closed.

Fine. McGlocklin raced up behind him in World Star Hip Hop stealth attack mode and landed a massive not-at-all-face-to-face shove...no, wait: punch from behind. Happy now?

As you opined, the World Star Hip Hop Stomping ended by the time the gun was drawn. It was not, by your own argument, self defense.

Case indeed closed.

 

[The Big Dog]

Fine. McGlocklin raced up behind him in World Star Hip Hop stealth attack mode and landed a massive not-at-all-face-to-face shove...no, wait: punch from behind. Happy now?

As you opined, the World Star Hip Hop Stomping ended by the time the gun was drawn. It was not, by your own argument, self defense.

Case indeed closed.

I struck through the lies, but otherwise spot on!

 

[Thermal]

I struck through the lies, but otherwise spot on!

This is what makes you such a stellar parody poster. The brazenness of asserting black is white to suit a losing argument, the refusal to acknowledge that they were plainly face to face in the clear security footage, the doublethink, the comical attempts to Jedi-mind-trick readers, it's just...

*kisses fingertips*

 

[Nessie]

The contention that they were "squared up" face-to-face and that he shoved him with two hands in the chest is yet another, well lets call it what it was, a bald faced lie.

Folks this is easily proven by the fact the victim goes flying, not straight back, but off to the side.

Just another example of how the facts show that this was pure self defense. I mean, if y'all got make up things to try to stay even with the big dog, why bother?

Case closed.

Who said what you claim was said?

 

[The Big Dog]

This is what makes you such a stellar parody poster. The brazenness of asserting black is white to suit a losing argument, the refusal to acknowledge that they were plainly face to face in the clear security footage, the doublethink, the comical attempts to Jedi-mind-trick readers, it's just...

*kisses fingertips*

"face to face"

oy vey, such lies.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I struck through the lies, but otherwise spot on!

Maybe you can edit this post too:

wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous

 

[Dr. Keith]

Although I agree that it shouldn't be allowed to become a smoke and mirror move.

I think you can see that is becoming that, can't you?

 

[The Big Dog]

Maybe you can edit this post too:

No need, but seeing as how many correspondents ignore the clear as day context:

"wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, he aimed for center mass, pulled the trigger, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous

Clear enough for ya?

 

[Thermal]

"face to face"

oy vey, such lies.

Is there something... dark...about this sordid tale which troubles you? A black-heartedness that has colored your view? Something that only a supreme white knight could shoulder the cross of, burning with righteousness?

 

[Thermal]

I think you can see that is becoming that, can't you?

Sort of. I would say the main point is as thoroughly discussed as it can be, with general agreement. Is there any non-parody argument left? Just some quibbling over how much of a threat Drejka could reasonably have been under, which I think falls closer to the sidebars.

 

[Dr. Keith]

No need, but seeing as how many correspondents ignore the clear as day context:

"wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, he aimed for center mass, pulled the trigger, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous

Clear enough for ya?

Very clear.

In fact, I like your timeline:

1. the attack had not ended,
2. the attacker was coming in for stomping time,
3. and was stopped only because the gun was drawn,
4. he aimed for center mass,
5. pulled the trigger,

And I think once we all agree that you timeline is in the right order, even if we disagree about whether the fictional "stomping time" was coming, then I think we can all agree it was a bad shooting.

Thanks again.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Sort of. I would say the main point is as thoroughly discussed as it can be, with general agreement. Is there any non-parody argument left? Just some quibbling over how much of a threat Drejka could reasonably have been under, which I think falls closer to the sidebars.

Yeah, I see your point.

Especially now that even TBD has clarified that he agrees the attack stopped before the gun was even aimed.

This thread is just done.

 

[Nessie]

We need to go back. Drejka is abusing the female in the car. She gets out, then McGlockton seeing that may have feared for her, so he pushes Drejka to the ground.