Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[Cosmic Yak]

This is not just one anecdote. It's one among many in the literature of out of body experiences and verdical perception. So, there are a lot of indications already

Sam Parnia is busy with the second part of the Aware Study. Each hospital installed between 50 and 100 high shelves in areas where cardiac arrest resuscitation is likely to happen, such as emergency rooms and intensive care wards. Each shelf holds one visual image that faced upwards and therefore is only visible from a vantage point near the ceiling. He has announced that the study will now go on until 2020, when a results presentation will be made to the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians. It will be bring it in line to match the length, and hopefully breadth of the first AWARE. A larger data pool and more analysis means better observations and deductions.
There are currently 8 participating hospitals in the study, with an option to extend to 25.

How many patients were able to read the cards in the first AWARE study?

Oh, now I remember: none.

Why are they now doing a second study of the same thing, and why are they expecting the results to be any different? What's changed? Are people (nearly) dying differently now?

 

[fibbermcgee]

If someone is having a NDE I think that the last thing on his mind would probably be about his loved ones rather than memorizing a bunch of numbers or remembering random pictures.

 

[Foolmewunz]

If someone is having a NDE I think that the last thing on his mind would probably be about his loved ones rather than memorizing a bunch of numbers or remembering random pictures.

Particularly an OOBE where ya look down and go

"Holy ****! That's me! Am I dead? That must be Dr. Sawyer over me. Doc! Doc! It's me, Armando! No. I'm not dead. I'm up here!"

How does that compare to. "Oh, I say, it does appear that I'm either dead and thus a spirit of some kind, or I'm having a classical textcomic book OOBE. I think I'll check out some serial numbers on the OR lights."

 

[SOdhner]

This is a recent and remarkable story from an anesthesiologist

Not that remarkable, really. It's not properly documented and it's unsupportable so it's about like every other anecdote.

Here's my question though. Setting aside the serial numbers and stuff, the guy said this:

I know what you did and said in there. You never gave up on me. Even when the surgeon said it was over and y’all should call it.

So wait. The surgeon in charge called time of death and the anesthesiologist overruled him? Is that normal?

 

[Thor 2]

This is a recent and remarkable story from an anesthesiologist:

The patient saw the serial numbers from a position from above which he could not have seen when he was under anaesthesia. The serial numbers were correct.

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Interesting and typical how in your OP you imply that the sensations experienced by those with NDE's is commonplace, and therefore a remarkable coincidence if explained by the explainable - without referring to woo.

Here however you refer to an account given by an anaesthesiologist who claims this is the only encounter he has had with someone having one of these experiences after 15,000 cases of anaesthetising patients.

Having had 3 near death events and no sensations like the ones you describe myself, as well as talking to and reading of others who have had a score of zero also, I refute your implication that these experiences are commonplace.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Not that remarkable, really. It's not properly documented and it's unsupportable so it's about like every other anecdote.

Here's my question though. Setting aside the serial numbers and stuff, the guy said this:



So wait. The surgeon in charge called time of death and the anesthesiologist overruled him? Is that normal?

You are suggesting that the story may be false. This anesthesiologist worked together with collegues (nurses, doctors, etc.) in that room. These collegues, who witnessed this event too, can also read his testimony on Facebook and Quora. Don't you think that an anesthesiologist is aware of this fact when telling this story to the public? His collegues who were in that room, who witnessed the same event, also will read his article on quora and Facebook. Suggesting that the anethesiologist is lying is not realistic at all.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Here however you refer to an account given by an anaesthesiologist who claims this is the only encounter he has had with someone having one of these experiences after 15,000 cases of anaesthetising patients.

The rare cases and exceptions can give us some information. Sometimes you have to look at the anomalies, to get knowledge about the true nature of something. Rare brain diseases tell scientists something about the functioning of the brain f.e. It tells us how certain parts of the brain work together with other parts. The rare cases contain information. In this case: NDE's en OBE's tell us something about the fact that what we think we know about consciousness may be wrong.

 

[Loss Leader]

Don't you think that an anesthesiologist is aware of this fact when telling this story to the public? His collegues who were in that room, who witnessed the same event, also will read his article on quora and Facebook. Suggesting that the anethesiologist is lying is not realistic at all.

Um ... people have different memories of events all the time. Forest Gump never said, "Life is like a box of chocolates." Darth Vader never said, "Luke, I am your father." Bogart never said, "Play it again, Sam." Jack and Rose weren't together at the bow of the Titanic during the "King of the World" moment.

Yet there are scores of people who would swear they remember these things.

 

[SOdhner]

You are suggesting that the story may be false. This anesthesiologist worked together with collegues (nurses, doctors, etc.) in that room. These collegues, who witnessed this event too, can also read his testimony on Facebook and Quora. Don't you think that an anesthesiologist is aware of this fact when telling this story to the public? His collegues who were in that room, who witnessed the same event, also will read his article on quora and Facebook. Suggesting that the anethesiologist is lying is not realistic at all.

Watch this:

Yeah, I remember one time a few years back I ran into some coworkers at a store near the company we worked at. I was getting something for lunch because I didn't want to get fast food again and hadn't remembered to pack something at home before my shift - I assume they were there for a similar reason. Anyway we were all standing there chatting about work when someone comes flying down the aisle in a shopping cart and hits one of the displays. Sunscreen bottles went flying everywhere, and we ran over to make sure the guy was okay. Thing is, when we got there - just twenty feet away and in plain view the whole time - the cart and the person were just gone without a trace. The display was wrecked, we all agreed on what the person looked like, and yet... nothing. There's no way they could have gotten up and left that fast, especially without us seeing.

Okay, how would this be proven false if I posted it on Quora or wherever? Did I say specifically where this happened and on what day? Did I say which coworkers I was with? I gave some details but none of them are remotely useful for confirming or falsifying any part of my story. So when you say:

This anesthesiologist worked together with collegues (nurses, doctors, etc.) in that room.

My question is... which colleagues? Which room? What year did it happen? Which hospital? You refer to colleagues who "witnessed the same event" but that assumes the event happened in any way at all.

He wouldn't have to worry that someone would track down eleven years' worth of coworkers from who knows how many hospitals and grill them about whether or not they remembered a surgery that matches this description. Nobody would do that. He also wouldn't need to worry that anyone would say "I was there and that's not how it happened" if it simply didn't happen at all. The most they could say is "I was in several surgeries with him, and that doesn't sound like the specific ones that I was there for to the best of my recollection". Further, if anyone did press him for details he could say "Gosh, if I give you enough information to track down the guy that would be a HIPAA violation - I actually have to be this vague to protect the patient's information". So he's at zero risk of being caught.

 

[Wolrab]

I've worked in hospitals. I have been close to over one hundred coworkers. I was facebook friends with many. I am down to about a dozen now that I have only a virtual relationship with. Only three that I actually see with any regularity in the real world.


The rest could be posting about anything in the world and I would never know. I unfriended many because they posted about woo that I couldn't stomach. I never confronted them about their silly beliefs.



IMHO if you are a professional with any kind of science based degree, you should be at least a minimal critical thinker.

 

[Thor 2]

The rare cases and exceptions can give us some information. Sometimes you have to look at the anomalies, to get knowledge about the true nature of something. Rare brain diseases tell scientists something about the functioning of the brain f.e. It tells us how certain parts of the brain work together with other parts. The rare cases contain information. In this case: NDE's en OBE's tell us something about the fact that what we think we know about consciousness may be wrong.

How you can miss the point I am making in such a spectacular manner is astounding.

 

[Mojo]

My question is... which colleagues? Which room? What year did it happen? Which hospital? You refer to colleagues who "witnessed the same event" but that assumes the event happened in any way at all.

It’s just an attempt to reverse the burden of proof: Maartenn100 puts up an anecdotal account and expects us to disprove it.

 

[turingtest]

The rare cases and exceptions can give us some information. Sometimes you have to look at the anomalies, to get knowledge about the true nature of something. Rare brain diseases tell scientists something about the functioning of the brain f.e. It tells us how certain parts of the brain work together with other parts. The rare cases contain information. In this case: NDE's en OBE's tell us something about the fact that what we think we know about consciousness may be wrong.

Little bit of question-begging going on with the highlighted, I think. There's a difference between an experience being an anomaly and a claim to the experience being one. It's "this patient had an OOBE" vs "this patient claimed to have had an OOBE"; if you simply skip to "the OOBE might show something about consciousness we don't now know," you've just assumed the former without doing the (scientifically required) inquiring into the latter. And, as SOdhner has pretty effectively shown, your evidence is not only anecdotal, it's unverifiable- how do you think the anesthesiologist's claims can be challenged by his colleagues when he's gone out of his way to make them unchallengeable? "Frank" wasn't the patient's real name- whether it's for HIPAA concerns or not, this alone makes the story useless for any evidentiary purpose, since it's not falsifiable.

 

[theprestige]

You are suggesting that the story may be false. This anesthesiologist worked together with collegues (nurses, doctors, etc.) in that room. These collegues, who witnessed this event too, can also read his testimony on Facebook and Quora. Don't you think that an anesthesiologist is aware of this fact when telling this story to the public? His collegues who were in that room, who witnessed the same event, also will read his article on quora and Facebook. Suggesting that the anethesiologist is lying is not realistic at all.

"TGIF! I'm going to spend the weekend catching up on my co-workers' blogs," said no one ever.

 

[steenkh]

It’s just an attempt to reverse the burden of proof: Maartenn100 puts up an anecdotal account and expects us to disprove it.

He also has the idea that many anecdotal accounts make up evidence.

 

[abaddon]

If someone is having a NDE I think that the last thing on his mind would probably be about his loved ones rather than memorizing a bunch of numbers or remembering random pictures.

Speaking from experience, I simply sat back and enjoyed the ride. It was hilarious.

 

[Twoflower]

My experience was that it was like going down in a deep pool. After a while I became aware that I was dying and my decent stopped. I thought about my quality of life at the time and thought how easy it would be just to relax and keep sinking. Then I thought about my children, who were very young at the time, and who I could trust to look after them. I realised that there was no one I trusted to put the children's interest first, so I came back.
I gradually became of the crash team standing round the bed looking worried.

No white light no astral walking just my own thoughts.

 

[BStrong]

I stand by my post on page 1:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10582530&postcount=11

The only thing I can say from personal experience is that having been there, I saw nothing, heard nothing, and felt nothing.

I was also very glad to eventually open my eyes.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

YMMV, but 3 for 3 no dead relatives, heavenly harps or bright lights.

 

[abaddon]

My experience was that it was like going down in a deep pool. After a while I became aware that I was dying and my decent stopped. I thought about my quality of life at the time and thought how easy it would be just to relax and keep sinking. Then I thought about my children, who were very young at the time, and who I could trust to look after them. I realised that there was no one I trusted to put the children's interest first, so I came back.
I gradually became of the crash team standing round the bed looking worried.

No white light no astral walking just my own thoughts.

Oh I got the tunnel and white lights. Turns out to be the floods over the operating table and the slow re-emergence of consciousness.

 

[Buddha]

A near-death claim needs some hard proof, not just someone's assurance. An ideal proof would be the reproduction of a recorded conversation that the operating crew had while the patient was close to death. Nothing of this sort has been presented so far, so the claims are unsubstantiated.