Darlie Routier

With due respect for my friend, LondonJohn, I agree with Henry McPhee. The sock evidence as well as Darlee's wounds being anything-but superficial are enough to cast doubt on the prosecution's theory.

(snip of opinion).

With all due respect Bill Williams, much older author Barbara Davis did the 'sock sprint' with time to spare. And if Darlie had such a serious neck wound, how was she able to run around, babbling nonsense to the operator about maybe getting fingerprints from the knife she picked up and shouting to her husband that they came in an just did this? A serious neck wound is not conducive to yelling anything. The doctors who examined her at the time called it superficial. She was held in hospital as long as she was because of the murders, not because of her injuries.
 
not really superficial

IIRC the word "superficial" does appear in the report. However, the knife wound came within one to two millimeters of the carotid artery.

IIUC the husband said that he had considered hiring someone to break in, so as to be able to collect insurance money of some sort. That would be a curious coincidence.
 
With all due respect Bill Williams, much older author Barbara Davis did the 'sock sprint' with time to spare. And if Darlie had such a serious neck wound, how was she able to run around, babbling nonsense to the operator about maybe getting fingerprints from the knife she picked up and shouting to her husband that they came in an just did this? A serious neck wound is not conducive to yelling anything. The doctors who examined her at the time called it superficial. She was held in hospital as long as she was because of the murders, not because of her injuries.

Exactly. The nurses even testified that only because of the circumstances did they keep her over night. That an injury like she came in with that night, would have taken some butterfly bandages, some aspirin, and be sent home.
The nurses also documented her behavior when one of her brutally butchered sons (by a crazed intruder) was rolled by her on a bloody gurney. They reported that Darlie showed no emotion.


Oh, I know, we all grieve differently. If any of you are parents . . . I mean, really?
 
taking the fifth

If you read the trial transcript, the men took the fifth AFTER the defense attorney said/suggested they had broken the law, committed a felony - something along that line. Taking the fifth under those circumstances is reasonable, even for a police officer. If you're not sure where the questioning is going and you've been accused of something, taking the fifth is smart.
In one sense it might be "smart," but it prompts the question of what they were doing that had aroused the suspicions of the defense attorney. In this instance, I suppose that the legality of the secret recording I mentioned upthread becomes pertinent. If one is willing to (presumably) break the law to obtain a recording, it suggests that one's mind is made up with respect to guilt or innocence.

Was Darlie medicated when she allegedly showed no emotions? Were these impressions recorded contemporaneously or were they documented later. In the case of Todd Williamson, witnesses changed their impressions of how he was acting over time. IMO it's a weak argument for guilt no matter what.
 
In one sense it might be "smart," but it prompts the question of what they were doing that had aroused the suspicions of the defense attorney. In this instance, I suppose that the legality of the secret recording I mentioned upthread becomes pertinent. If one is willing to (presumably) break the law to obtain a recording, it suggests that one's mind is made up with respect to guilt or innocence.

Why are you presuming it was against the law?

Was Darlie medicated when she allegedly showed no emotions? Were these impressions recorded contemporaneously or were they documented later. In the case of Todd Williamson, witnesses changed their impressions of how he was acting over time. IMO it's a weak argument for guilt no matter what.

I don't believe anyone is arguing for her guilt from her reaction alone.

Hank
 
confirmation bias

Why are you presuming it was against the law?

Hank
For the sake of argument I presumed that the lead detective did not have the legal right to make a secret recording (see comment #453); therefore, he took the fifth. Not being a lawyer, I am not certain whether or not it were legal, but it is difficult to see why he would take the fifth unless it were illegal. Moreover, the fact that he went this far (whether legal or not) prompts one to consider how soon his mind was made up. Confirmation bias is a common component of wrongful convictions, partially because it taints the process of investigation. In this instance, my impression is that it set it fairly early among at least one investigator.

At this point I think that the balance of probability is that she is guilty (though more information could easily change that preliminary assessment one way or another). However, there are a few factors which suggest that a new trial would be in the interests of justice. Among them are the errors in the trial transcript, the blood spatter evidence which went unchallenged, and they way that the defense responded to the recording of a portion of the memorial service.
 
Confirmation Bias, Anyone?

For the sake of argument I presumed that the lead detective did not have the legal right to make a secret recording (see comment #453); therefore, he took the fifth. Not being a lawyer, I am not certain whether or not it were legal, but it is difficult to see why he would take the fifth unless it were illegal. Moreover, the fact that he went this far (whether legal or not) prompts one to consider how soon his mind was made up. Confirmation bias is a common component of wrongful convictions, partially because it taints the process of investigation. In this instance, my impression is that it set it fairly early among at least one investigator.

At this point I think that the balance of probability is that she is guilty (though more information could easily change that preliminary assessment one way or another). However, there are a few factors which suggest that a new trial would be in the interests of justice. Among them are the errors in the trial transcript, the blood spatter evidence which went unchallenged, and they way that the defense responded to the recording of a portion of the memorial service.

I think 'confirmation bias' sums up nicely how you arrived at your conclusion. You presume it's illegal, you presume they took the 5th for that reason, and you presume they went that far because their mind was already made up.

Congratulations, your conclusion matches your presumptions.

Hank
 
I don't believe anyone is arguing for her guilt from her reaction alone.

Hank

One, your comment does not address my question. Two, if her demeanor forms part of the reason for her conviction, then the reasons for her demeanor and whether or not these impressions were recorded immediately take on significance.
 
Last edited:
I think 'confirmation bias' sums up nicely how you arrived at your conclusion. You presume it's illegal, you presume they took the 5th for that reason, and you presume they went that far because their mind was already made up.

Congratulations, your conclusion matches your presumptions.

Hank
"In Katz, the Court held that the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places..." link

On the other hand there is a ruling of the fifth circuit of the U.S. court of appeals.
 
Last edited:
One, your comment does not address my question. Two, if her demeanor forms part of the reason for her conviction, then the reasons for her demeanor and whether or not these impressions were recorded immediately take on significance.

1. What question?

2. That's a big if. Proof forthcoming?

3. You're just begging the question at this point, rephrasing your presumption in another way.

Hank
 
"In Katz, the Court held that the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places..." link

On the other hand there is a ruling of the fifth circuit of the U.S. court of appeals.

So you're unsure of the law, yet your expressed presumptions are all in favor of the convict and against the investigators. You could presume otherwise and reach a different conclusion. As I said, that speaks more to your confirmation bias than theirs.

Hank
 
1. What question?

2. That's a big if. Proof forthcoming?

3. You're just begging the question at this point, rephrasing your presumption in another way.

Hank
With respect to 1, "Was Darlie medicated when she allegedly showed no emotions? Were these impressions recorded contemporaneously or were they documented later." See comment #464 upthread (in which the surname Willingham is misspelled).
With respect to 2, I suggest you ask how many times the jury watched the silly string video (and remember that Google is your friend).
With respect to 3, your comment makes no sense. Your argument about bias never did. If your subsequent comments include useful information, I may respond to them.
 
One, your comment does not address my question. Two, if her demeanor forms part of the reason for her conviction, then the reasons for her demeanor and whether or not these impressions were recorded immediately take on significance.

Fair enough. I don't believe demeanor carries the same significance. It is, to the best of my memory, something the nurses made note of while under their care that evening.

It has been a few years since I really studied this case as intensely as I did for a long time. It was on my radar since prior to her arrest, and I started following through the years. At one point I read transcripts, depositions, coroner reports, finger print analysis.

Also, I did not limit myself to material that just supported my early observations. I went to 'pro-Darlie' sites, 'she-did-it-sites', conversation forums that debated pro and con. In time I formed my opinion based on the results I had amerced in time.

The corner's report shows the rage the stabber was expressing. By an intruder who takes the time to touch her "down there", and makes some feeble neck "slashes"? Slashes, yet stabs the children? Does that make any rational sense?

I believe that, in a deep state of post partum depression, her disappointment in not having a girl after 2 boys, her stress over losing her financial status, a woman who had a history of disturbance, pathological lying, narcissism, who was in the depths of despair and felt she had to eliminate the surplus. And save her own bosom.

Again. This is not my lust for seeing "her fry". I don't care if she stays in prison for the rest of her natural life. Just stay, and not harm anyone else.
 
For the sake of argument I presumed that the lead detective did not have the legal right to make a secret recording (snip of irrelevance)
.

If you are in a public place (a non-private cemetery, the mall during business hours, etc), you have NO reasonable right to privacy. Anyone can make a recording of what you are doing in a public place. There, does that clear the legality of the recording for you? If you're doing the funky chicken in the middle of the mall, it can be filmed by anyone there or anyone who has set up a recording of the spot you are 'dancing' in.

What you seem to be ignoring is the FACT that the defense had a recording of the ceremony that took place BEFORE the 'silly string' incident and chose NOT to show it to the jury. Why aren't her defenders tarring and feathering her defense team for that?

The reason the defense attorney made the suggestion of illegality was to distract the jury from the fact that there was no proof of an intruder, that Darlie was the only person besides Darin who could have done it and she discounted him; the defense attorney knew it wasn't illegal and he knew a smart policeman/detective would immediately go into defensive mode. Unfortunately, the jury was smarter than Darlie (not hard - sad, but true) and ignore the effort to implicate the police department in a nefarious scheme to frame her.
 
Last edited:
Desmirelle,

You wrote, "What you seem to be ignoring is the FACT that the defense had a recording of the ceremony that took place BEFORE the 'silly string' incident and chose NOT to show it to the jury. Why aren't her defenders tarring and feathering her defense team for that?"

“Because a judge ordered it suppressed, the jury never saw a police surveillance video of the grave site taken earlier that same day, where Darlie Routier was seen weeping and praying.” Link1

“During Routier's trial, a detective testified that investigators hid microphones near the boys' graves in Rockwall before Devon's birthday in the hopes that someone might make a confession that would lead police to the killer. In 1997, after an FBI investigation, U.S. Attorney Paul E. Coggins announced that the Rowlett Police Department would not face federal charges for planting the hidden microphones. Attorneys and others questioned the legality of the move. The investigation determined that the decision was based on legal advice indicating the technique was lawful. In June 1998, Routier's mother and husband filed a lawsuit accusing the police detectives and a prosecutor of invading their privacy. The suit was later dismissed.” Link2

The above material is what I have found out so far. I believe that the judge ordered it suppressed because there was no warrant (I seem to recall reading that but could easily be mistaken). Do you mean that there is a separate recording made by someone else?

Now on to some other things. According to summaries of a later ruling on this case by the 5th circuit court of appeals, there is no expectation of privacy in a public graveyard; however, until this 2001 ruling, I don't know of a reason to consider the question settled. Moreover, "In determining whether Kee and Routier had an expectation of privacy while at the grave site, the Fifth Circuit examined such factors as how loudly they spoke, the proximity or potential of others to overhear them, the potential for their conversation to be reported, and anything Kee and Routier had done to keep their conversation private." Link4 After reading this, I would say that whether or not there is an expectation of privacy in a publicly accessible cemetery depends on the circumstances.

With respect to the defense team, there appear to be several things that they did wrong. Offhand, I would say that if they have a second recording of the service (ceremony), then playing it would seem like a very good idea. Furthermore, some of the prosecution's character attacks (that she had breast implants, for example) should have been rebutted in some fashion. BTW I do not have a strongly pro- or anti-Darlie position; I have some very preliminary opinions only.

At least one investigator seems to have decided that there was probably no intruder long before the DNA evidence would have come in: “Cron testified that he walked through the home, conducting a visual inspection of the evidence. During testimony, Cron agreed that after 20 to 30 minutes of examining the scene he made the comment ‘that looks to me like there was no intruder here.’” Link3
 
Last edited:
Link 1 is a story from ABC News. It has no judge's name and I have no way of knowing what or whom their source was. And after a long time searching, all I get to routed back to this story. No Judge's name, no date of the ruling, nada.
 
Last edited:
from Justia

"There is some discrepancy in the record regarding whether Patterson and Frosch were directly responsible for the actual placing of the wiretap in this location. Both Patterson and Frosch state, in their affidavits submitted in support of their summary judgment motion, that they were aware of the investigation into the Routier children's murder. Both claim, however, that they had circumscribed roles in the direct surveillance activities. In contrast, Kee and Routier allege that Patterson admitted under oath in the state criminal trial of Darlie Kee that he was the lead investigator on the case and that he was involved in planning the surveillance. Furthermore, Kee and Routier point to Frosch's affidavit in which he admitted to obtaining an urn from the cemetery owners, which he understood would be used in the surveillance. Frosch also admitted to discussing the surveillance with the owners of the cemetery." link
These two officers' statements don't seem close to the truth, but I suppose it depends on the meaning of circumscribed. This link also mentions the lack of a warrant, but not anything else.
 
two recordings

IIUC there are two recordings of the graveside prayer service. One made by police, and one made by a local TV station. I agree with the general thrust of some pro-innocence commenters that the defense should have countered the silly string video in some way, possibly by using the TV footage.
 

Back
Top Bottom