Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

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Enough with the analogies already, which part of the end is bitter and which part is Trump?

But seriously, Trump is the worst President the US has ever seen. He has no equal in everything that goes with the job. To say that all presidents (or politicians) are corrupt or bad is silly, no one is as bad or incompetent as our current POTUS. So in the analogy 5 is Trump and 50 is any other president you want to use so to complete the analogy. To say both 5 (trump) and 50 (name your poison) are both #'s is accurate (they are both politicians) but to say they are both equal is naive.
To summarize without any analogy, Trump is the worst by far and no one in our past can even come close to the Trump we have in office now.
 
Scootch said:
Trump is the worst by far and no one in our past can even come close to the Trump we have in office now.
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And that is the conclusion about which we disagree. Putting it in terms of a number line doesn't change the nature of our disagreement. It just restates a position you hold and I don't.

What makes you think that restating your position in terms of a number line would change my mind, when restating your position in its own terms doesn't change my mind? What were you expecting? "Oh, Trump is the 50? Now I understand!" Something like that?
 
Scootch said:
Enough with the analogies already, which part of the end is bitter and which part is Trump?

But seriously, Trump is the worst President the US has ever seen. He has no equal in everything that goes with the job. To say that all presidents (or politicians) are corrupt or bad is silly, no one is as bad or incompetent as our current POTUS. So in the analogy 5 is Trump and 50 is any other president you want to use so to complete the analogy. To say both 5 (trump) and 50 (name your poison) are both #'s is accurate (they are both politicians) but to say they are both equal is naive.
To summarize without any analogy, Trump is the worst by far and no one in our past can even come close to the Trump we have in office now.
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You have the numbers a bit reversed. How bad the corruption is, either in the sense of specific person or party, is in play. If we have Hillary (5) say, passing classified information along using a private server that doesn't actually comply with all the government regulations and probably doing so specifically so that she could, if desired, pick and choose what to present in case of a FOIA request, that's a problem. If we have Trump (50) outright just giving away classified information to foreign governments, that's also a problem. What theprestige was doing was the common dishonest tactic of ignoring that the severity of a problem can be wildly different, even if they're in the same very general category regarding what kind of problem is occurring there, and doing so with a gross misstatement about the actual state of things in general. That Hillary, much of the GOP leadership, and some of the Democrat leadership can be considered to be corrupt doesn't even close to meet the bar for the claim that all politicians are corrupt and/or sleazy.
 
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theprestige said:
Regarding the topic of the thread: Is Manafort going to prison for conspiring to improperly influence US elections?
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We don't know yet.

But let's say it turns out Manafort was involved in the quid pro quo part of Putin getting deals from Trump?

With new outrages daily I know it's hard to remember them all.

Politifact: Did Trump campaign soften platform language to benefit Russia?
When Meet the Press host Chuck Todd asked Trump campaign adviser Paul Manafort about how much influence Trump in changing the platform, Manafort denied any involvement. (Read about Manafort’s connections to pro-Russian Ukrainian politicians here).

Todd then asked where the idea came from, and added, "Everybody on the platform committee had said it came from the Trump campaign. If not you, who?"

Finally, Todd pressed the matter, asking if anyone on the Trump campaign wanted that change, to which Manafort answered: "No one, zero."...

Independent reporting does seem to undercut Manafort’s denial of any involvement.

"The Trump campaign worked behind the scenes last week to make sure the new Republican platform won’t call for giving weapons to Ukraine to fight Russian and rebel forces, contradicting the view of almost all Republican foreign policy leaders in Washington," reported Josh Rogin in the Washington Post. ...
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NPR: 2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support
President Trump may have been involved with a change to the Republican Party campaign platform last year that watered down support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine, according to new information from someone who was involved.

Diana Denman, a Republican delegate who supported arming U.S. allies in Ukraine, has told people that Trump aide J.D. Gordon said at the Republican Convention in 2016 that Trump directed him to support weakening that position in the official platform.
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It may not be the most significant charges against Manafort: Town Hall:Mueller Reveals Tenuous Link Between Manafort Charges And Trump
Mueller has revealed why he believes the Manafort prosecution is related to the 2016 Trump campaign. It's a small part, a very small part, of the overall charges against Manafort. And it has nothing to do with any actions by the candidate -- now the president -- himself.

Mueller's revelation came in an argument he is having with the Manafort defense over what subjects can and cannot be discussed in front of jurors in Manafort's upcoming trial.
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Manafort's defense attorneys are trying to claim there are no ties to Trump.
"Evidence or argument relating to Mr. Manafort's work for then-candidate Trump's campaign in 2016 or the Special Counsel's investigation of the campaign's alleged collusion with the Russian government," the Manafort team wrote in a June 22 motion, "is wholly irrelevant to whether Mr. Manafort's personal income tax returns were false, whether he willfully failed to file reports of foreign accounts, and whether he conspired to commit, or committed, bank fraud."
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But that's what you would expect from a defense attorney and of course, Trump has been spewing the propaganda that Mueller's investigation should not involve all these other crimes from way back. Of course. :rolleyes:

Mueller allowed the motion not to bring up collusion. Then he went on:
Most of the 32 counts against Manafort in the Virginia case concern alleged crimes that took place long before there was a Trump campaign. Some go back as far as 2006. But four of the counts involve a pair of loans Manafort took out between April 2016 and January 2017. For a few months during that time period, Manafort worked for the Trump campaign.

The loans totaled $16 million and came from a financial institution Mueller refers to as Lender D. According to Mueller, Manafort lied to get the loans, overstating his income and understating his debts. Mueller says that some workers at Lender D knew there was a problem with Manafort's application, but that one top executive there, a man who wanted a place in the Trump campaign, granted the loan anyway. From the Mueller filing:...

...In May, The Wall Street Journal reported that Mueller is investigating whether the loans were "made as part of a quid pro quo arrangement to secure Mr. Calk a job in Mr. Trump's administration." Calk has denied any such arrangement.
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Could be this is why Mueller has made no deals with Manafort.
 
theprestige said:
Regarding the topic of the thread: Is Manafort going to prison for conspiring to improperly influence US elections?
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Probably for tax evasion, not registering or reporting his actions, and witness tampering. But this is his first go around. They are lining up charges in New York. I don't know if Manafort has evidence against Trump. Probably. That his accountants were granted immunity, you can pretty much expect them to fully disclose how he moved his money around and probably why.
 
Scootch said:
To summarize without any analogy, Trump is the worst by far and no one in our past can even come close to the Trump we have in office now.
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He's an Outside Context Problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession#Outside_Context_Problem


"This is a problem that is "outside the context" as it is generally not considered until it occurs, and the capacity to actually conceive of or consider the OCP in the first place may not be possible or very limited (i.e., the majority of the group's population may not have the knowledge or ability to realize that the OCP can arise, or assume it is extremely unlikely)"
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Trump Tweets

"So we now find out that it was indeed the unverified and Fake Dirty Dossier, that was paid for by Crooked Hillary Clinton and the DNC, that was knowingly & falsely submitted to FISA and which was responsible for starting the totally conflicted and discredited Mueller Witch Hunt!"

"“It was classified to cover up misconduct by the FBI and the Justice Department in misleading the Court by using this Dossier in a dishonest way to gain a warrant to target the Trump Team. This is a Clinton Campaign document. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump...."

"....and the DOJ, FBI and Obama Gang need to be held to account. Source #1 was the major source. Avoided talking about it being the Clinton campaign behind it. Misled the Court to provide a pretext to SPY on the Trump Team. Not about Carter Page..was all about getting Trump....."

".....”Carter Page wasn’t a spy, wasn’t an agent of the Russians - he would have cooperated with the FBI. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump.” Tom Fitton @JudicialWatch A disgrace to America. They should drop the discredited Mueller Witch Hunt now!"
 
smartcooky said:
That's it then, Manafort is done. If he wants to avoid a very long time in jail, his options are narrowing rapidly to only one, roll over on Trump like Cohen is probably about to do.

I'll bet Dolt 45 can feel the jaws of the vice closing
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Manafort has good reason to fear for his and his family's safety if he starts talking about Russian money-flows. I think he'll choose to do the time.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

"So we now find out that it was indeed the unverified and Fake Dirty Dossier, that was paid for by Crooked Hillary Clinton and the DNC, that was knowingly & falsely submitted to FISA and which was responsible for starting the totally conflicted and discredited Mueller Witch Hunt!"

"“It was classified to cover up misconduct by the FBI and the Justice Department in misleading the Court by using this Dossier in a dishonest way to gain a warrant to target the Trump Team. This is a Clinton Campaign document. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump...."

"....and the DOJ, FBI and Obama Gang need to be held to account. Source #1 was the major source. Avoided talking about it being the Clinton campaign behind it. Misled the Court to provide a pretext to SPY on the Trump Team. Not about Carter Page..was all about getting Trump....."

".....”Carter Page wasn’t a spy, wasn’t an agent of the Russians - he would have cooperated with the FBI. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump.” Tom Fitton @JudicialWatch A disgrace to America. They should drop the discredited Mueller Witch Hunt now!"
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Someone is in desperate "quick! Look over there!" mode.
 
I like the term "Obama gang", though. Gives me a picture in my head of Barrack as a prohibition-era gangster leader, suit, machine gun, cigar and all.
 
acbytesla said:
Probably for tax evasion, not registering or reporting his actions, and witness tampering. But this is his first go around. They are lining up charges in New York. I don't know if Manafort has evidence against Trump. Probably. That his accountants were granted immunity, you can pretty much expect them to fully disclose how he moved his money around and probably why.
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100%

People under investigation do not ask for immunity unless they think have the goods on a bigger fish.

Prosecutors do not grant immunity unless they know those goods are worth the quid pro quo.
 
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