TERFs crash London Pride

[bluesjnr]

It sounds to me as though there's a separate group of men who are gaming the system that was developing to support genuine trans-gender people. The few trans-men and -women that I've met certainly don't match what's being described here, but are being maligned for the actions of others.

Is there any insight as to whether these people genuinely believe that they are trans, or are they doing it for some other reason? Is it an organised movement with some ulterior motive?

That's exactly what has been niggling away at me as they appear to hide in plain sight.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Everything is messy doesn't make meaningful definition impossible.

If you were looking at anything but people it would obviously be male and female, but once people can get offended things get complicated.

Not at all it just becomes easier to ignore and pretend the complicated cases do not exist because they are not people. It doesn't make them not exist.

And the easiest meaningful definition no one likes because it is not binary, functionally reproductive males, functionally reproductive females and everyone else. So have a hysterectomy congrats no longer a female, same with menopause.

But this does not reinforce the gender binary that people appealing to biology are looking for. You can even get further by bringing in species connections that are also messy. Tigers and Lions are not the same species because they would not naturally interbreed. So are gay men really males if their behavior makes them not breed?

 

[Rolfe]

I still can't get my head around the demands they are making seemingly gaining traction (I suspect my ignorance has a part to play). I can demand all the sex or access I want to all sections and subsets of society but that makes no difference whatsoever to my ability to actually achieve my aims. Why is it any different for the LBGT community. What am I missing here?

I know where you're coming from. You'd think a simple "no" would suffice so where's the problem, but I have read a lot that says it's not that simple.

This is the first article I read about it. Some thoughts on the cotton ceiling. I found it because I have known the author IRL for about 20 years, although not well, and when I started becoming interested in the topic last year I thought I would google a bit to find out where s/he stood on the subject. Note that this dates back to 2012. To say I was shocked would be a bit of an understatement. (For context, Roz is elderly, walks with a stick with some difficulty, passes for female about as well as your average builder's mate would, and is quite overweight.)

I have since seen a great deal of material from lesbians lamenting that they have no women-only groups or spaces any more, because the men in dresses insist on entering and joining in and being treated as "one of the girls". This suggests there are actually rather a lot of these people and it's not just a few who could be ignored. I've seen many stories of young lesbians distressed because they feel pressurised to accept male-bodied men as sexual partners for fear of being vilified and ostracised as transphobic and bigoted.

There's a lot of stuff on twitter from the trans-identifying men themselves telling lesbians it's absolutely transphobic to exclude them as a class from their potential pool of sexual partners. (Sure, you may not fancy me, the exhortation goes, but if you would reject any "woman" simply because she has a penis and testicles although she obviously has a woman's soul, you're not a true lesbian.) There's at least one article telling lesbians how they should pleasure a "transwoman" - it reads like a standard set of instructions for giving a man a blow-job. Lesbians who like to use penetrative sex toys are being told that a male-bodied "lesbian" is better and they should welcome the chance of an actual penis. Young lesbians trying to hook up online are saying that most of the replies they get to their lonely-hearts adverts are from male-bodied "lesbians".

Now I'm not a lesbian and I don't have first-hand experience of any of this (other than knowing Roz), but the sheer volume of stuff that's out there suggests it's not just a few pushy guys but a problem big enough to threaten lesbians' very society. It was as a response to this situation that the lesbian women brought their banners reading "lesbian = female homosexual" to the Pride march, and were then vilified (including in many posts in this thread) for daring to turn up where the trans activists didn't want them to be.

These guys are a genuine problem, and they've become extremely politically powerful by essentially adopting the mantle of a marginalised, vulnerable group when they personally are very far from being vulnerable - they're loud, aggressive and violent. But they're "trans", and that seems to be all it takes for officialdom to roll over and give in to any demand they make, because transphobia is the worst allegation you can make against someone these days, and the trans activists are entirely capable of getting people sacked for it.

 

[Aber]

Is there any insight as to whether these people genuinely believe that they are trans, or are they doing it for some other reason? Is it an organised movement with some ulterior motive?

In my opinion, there will always be people who will want to push the boundaries of what society accepts, simply for being at the vanguard of the revolution, if for nothing else.

How much this applies in this case I'm not sure, but I'm concerned about how quickly opponents are maligned as bigots, especially the use of TERF.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't see any campaigning for self-identified transmen to be allowed to use men's bathrooms.

As a bit of light relief, look up "Man Friday". They've gone into the men's bathrooms at the Scottish Parliament, they've gone swimming in the men-only pool on Hampstead Heath and one of them actually booked into a youth hostel as "self-identifying male" and was given a bed in a men's dorm.

 

[LlamaDrama]

Another constant is the use use of the description "hairy guy in a dress", is this not somewhat disingenuous?

I still can't get my head around the demands they are making seemingly gaining traction (I suspect my ignorance has a part to play). I can demand all the sex or access I want to all sections and subsets of society but that makes no difference whatsoever to my ability to actually achieve my aims. Why is it any different for the LBGT community. What am I missing here?

There were literally hairy guys in dresses! I saw a guy with a beard give a presentation with a black dress, and he was asking to be called a woman, while there have been others with similar evident facial hair and women's clothing, but I don't know if they wanted to be referred to as women.

The demands are an attempt to normalise the ideology that biological gender does not exist and it is all a social construct. "You must like me despite my genitalia".

 

[Rolfe]

... the number of "clothes trans" (I have no idea how else to call them) ...

The actual word is "transvestite", but don't use it, and most certainly don't use it where any of them can hear you. They take huge offence at the term.

Transvestites have been around a long time, and some (generally part-time) have had very successful careers in the entretainment industry, from the traditional pantomime dame up. Think Dame Edna Everage and Hinge and Bracket. Then there's Elton John except I gather he has now declared he's a woman too. Transvestites traditionally never claimed to be women, but that's all changing. Most if not all of them are jumping on the trans bandwagon and although they're still unaltered biological men in women's clothing they absolutely hate the word transvestite.

ETA: It occurs to me that some people might not know about Hinge and Bracket. Here are some pics.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hin...mLXcAhXKIsAKHVnVDOcQ_AUICigB&biw=1304&bih=666

I was a huge fan of their TV show in my early twenties. My big confession is that I didn't realise they were actually men for quite a long time. Slightly grainy black-and-white TV, superb costumes and makeup, and very good counter-tenor voices. There was one moment though when the penny dropped and my esteem for their act went up several orders of magnitude.

Some time later my father, who was also a fan, blurted out loud that he didn't know they were men. I did the "Oh daddy you are so uncool" thing without telling him I hadn't realised myself for quite a while, which was probably a bit mean.

 

[LlamaDrama]

It sounds to me as though there's a separate group of men who are gaming the system that was developing to support genuine trans-gender people. The few trans-men and -women that I've met certainly don't match what's being described here, but are being maligned for the actions of others.

Is there any insight as to whether these people genuinely believe that they are trans, or are they doing it for some other reason? Is it an organised movement with some ulterior motive?

This is an accurate description of my experience, and perhaps it one of the reasons why I have become more guarded against trans people in general.

Again, this is in my small microcosm, the number of trans people I met in real life was small (at least that I know of), but in my recent experience the number of men self-identifying as women has increased considerably, and some of these are people I have interacted with before. In the last year they've come out as trans women. I have no idea how widespread the phenomenon is, but at least in my experience this is more noticeable recently.

Buy the way, one of the guys I know who is now a she has a girlfriend, and calls himself a lesbian, as a result she identifies as bi-sexual now (not sure if she did before).

 

[Rolfe]

There were literally hairy guys in dresses! I saw a guy with a beard give a presentation with a black dress, and he was asking to be called a woman, while there have been others with similar evident facial hair and women's clothing, but I don't know if they wanted to be referred to as women.

The demands are an attempt to normalise the ideology that biological gender does not exist and it is all a social construct. "You must like me despite my genitalia".

It's now regarded as transphobic to say, woman isn't a feeling, woman isn't a dress and high heels, woman isn't a performance. We are being reduced to a stereotypical cariacature of ourselves. And if we mention any feature of being female that seems more important than these things, such as having a uterus and ovaries, we're accused of being creepily obsessed with other people's genitalia.

Women are being told they mustn't talk about pregnancy, menstruation, the menopause or such things as FGM, because it makes the men who want to be women feel all uncomfortable because it "excludes" them.

Breast-feeding is being re-labelled chest-feeding. The vagina is being relabelled the "front hole", with the word vagina repurposed to refer to the surgically-created structure men have fashioned from the inverted skin of their amputated penises.

It's going a lot further than "you must like me".

 

[LlamaDrama]

Is there any insight as to whether these people genuinely believe that they are trans, or are they doing it for some other reason? Is it an organised movement with some ulterior motive?

There is a concerted effort in academic circles to shut down any debate of the subject. Any effort to book anyone from the growing list of declared public transphobes is met with protests and no-platforming. Internally there is increased pressure to silence dissenting voices. Most of us simply shut up.

 

[LlamaDrama]

The actual word is "transvestite", but don't use it, and most certainly don't use it where any of them can hear you. They take huge offence at the term.

That was the word we used in my native country, but I understand that it is considered offensive now.

 

[LlamaDrama]

It's now regarded as transphobic to say, woman isn't a feeling, woman isn't a dress and high heels, woman isn't a performance. We are being reduced to a stereotypical cariacature of ourselves. And if we mention any feature of being female that seems more important than these things, such as having a uterus and ovaries, we're accused of being creepily obsessed with other people's genitalia.

Women are being told they mustn't talk about pregnancy, menstruation, the menopause or such things as FGM, because it makes the men who want to be women feel all uncomfortable because it "excludes" them.

Breast-feeding is being re-labelled chest-feeding. The vagina is being relabelled the "front hole", with the word vagina repurposed to refer to the surgically-created structure men have fashioned from the inverted skin of their amputated penises.

It's going a lot further than "you must like me".

May Cthulhu have mercy on us.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

It's now regarded as transphobic to say, woman isn't a feeling, woman isn't a dress and high heels, woman isn't a performance. We are being reduced to a stereotypical cariacature of ourselves. And if we mention any feature of being female that seems more important than these things, such as having a uterus and ovaries, we're accused of being creepily obsessed with other people's genitalia.

Women are being told they mustn't talk about pregnancy, menstruation, the menopause or such things as FGM, because it makes the men who want to be women feel all uncomfortable because it "excludes" them.

Breast-feeding is being re-labelled chest-feeding. The vagina is being relabelled the "front hole", with the word vagina repurposed to refer to the surgically-created structure men have fashioned from the inverted skin of their amputated penises.

It's going a lot further than "you must like me".

In the real world, or just on crackpot blogs and Tumblr?
Again, I'm not denying that there weirdos exist, but I'd like to know how prevalent it is before I hop onto the 'most trans folks are fetishistic bullies' train...

 

[Rolfe]

In the real world, or just on crackpot blogs and Tumblr?
Again, I'm not denying that there weirdos exist, but I'd like to know how prevalent it is before I hop onto the 'most trans folks are fetishistic bullies' train...

Yes, in the real world. Midwives in hospitals are being trained to talk about "pregnant people" not pregnant women, and "chest feeding" not breast-feeding. A new issue of a pamphlet about cervical smear screening doesn't have the word "woman" in it, instead it's something like cervix-havers. They say it's supposed to be inclusive like that. I foresee women of low educational background or for whom English is not their first language missing out because they don't know what a cervix is.

And please, once again, NOBODY is saying that "most trans folks" are fetishistic bullies. Nobody has any real idea how many pleasant, inoffensive trans folks are going about their daily lives without upsetting anyone. What concerned women are saying is that there has recently been a huge increase in the number of fetishistic bullies openly identifying as trans, and that these men have hijacked the agenda of what was previously regarded as a marginalised and vulnerable group. They personally are anything but marginalised or vulnerable, they're violent abusive bullies, but they just have to say the word "trans" and everyone has to fall in with their agenda because allegations of transphobia are toxic to anyone's career.

Percentages and proportions are not the issue.

 

[Rolfe]

There is a concerted effort in academic circles to shut down any debate of the subject. Any effort to book anyone from the growing list of declared public transphobes is met with protests and no-platforming. Internally there is increased pressure to silence dissenting voices. Most of us simply shut up.

In the other thread Georgina Beyer, a transsexual politician, talks about a line having to be drawn between "genuine transgender issues" and fetishism or deviancy. This, however, is a discussion which will not be allowed to happen in the present climate. If you say you're a woman you're a woman, and that's it, no debate.

A particularly disturbing incident was the silencing of the academic at the Bath Spa University who put in a proposal to study rates of and reasons for detransition among girls/young women who changed their minds after transitioning in adolescence. He thought this should be studied as he was seeing a lot of cases whereas cases of detransitioning of trans people used to be extremely rare.

He was subjected to a hate campaign by trans activists who deny that it's possible for anyone to experience regret after transitioning, and his research was defunded. Here is an article about it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...trans-bath-spa-university-james-a7965281.html

James Caspian, a psychotherapist who works with transgender and transsexual people, wanted to conduct the research for a master’s degree in counselling and psychotherapy at Bath Spa University.

His research proposal was rejected because, he said, the university found it best “not to offend people”.

“The fundamental reason given was that it might cause criticism of the research on social media and criticism of the research would be criticism of the university and they also added it was better not to offend people,” Mr Caspian told BBC Radio 4.

He added: “I was astonished at that decision. I think a university exists to encourage discussion, research, dissent even, challenging ideas that are out of date or not particularly useful.”

The university reportedly told Mr Caspian that “engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the university”.

This nonsense is having real effects in the real world and on the lives of real people.

 

[commandlinegamer]

ETA: It occurs to me that some people might not know about Hinge and Bracket.

At the risk of derailing the thread might I also recommend the BBC Radio Four comedy Fags, Mags and Bags set in a corner shop in the rather douce town of Lenzie, north-east of Glasgow. Some, if not all, of the posh lady characters are played by men, in much the same vein as the delightful twosome mentioned above.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Percentages and proportions are not the issue.

Sure they are. You just don't want them to be.

This sort of rhetorical bait and switch as a cover tactic is depressingly common when someone wants to demonize an entire class.

Recognize this example?

"I know the good ones, I know the bad ones, I know the overrated ones. You got ... They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists, and some, I assume, are good people.”.​

Nice company you're keeping.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And please, once again, NOBODY is saying that "most trans folks" are fetishistic bullies.

Yes they are. You specifically. When ever discussions of anything even vaguely trans related invites your hate filled paranoia rants, that's exactly what you are saying.

Every single topic where the concept of transgenderism is even a secondary factor you dump some page long treatise on some shadowy underbelly of predators regardless if it has anything to do with the topic at hand.

When the only part of the topic of "Demographic X" you want to discuss is "The Bad Part of Demographic X" you are, by omission, claiming they are all bad. A weak, apologetic "But some I'm sure are good people" ass-covering on the backswing does not change that.

If you think the broader transgender movement is hiding/enable a predator underclass, start a thread about it and keep your comments there.

I now await you to turtle up behind "But you just don't understand what it's like to be a poor widdle scared defenseless woman."

 

[JihadJane]

Trans critic, Posie Parker, talks with Venice Allan on various transgender-related issues, including the Gender Recognition Act and, in particular, giving puberty blockers to "transgender children" (sic) and the irreversible damage it may be doing to them.

Venice Allan organised the meeting in Hyde Park that was violently attacked by transgender activists in London, her first attempt to discuss transgenderism in public. Also (? I think) the one in Brighton, described in Rolfe's post, above.

 

[Rolfe]

I have stated innumerable times that I'm talking about the current wave of trans activists and their activities, and that these people are by no means "all trans people". I'm sick and tired of people telling this thread what I allegedly think about "all trans people" when I have never said any such thing and do not think any such thing.

The suggestion that we're only allowed to talk about "the bad part of demographic X" in a segregated thread for the purpose, and that all other discussion about demographic X must be all sweetness and light and never never mention the elephant in the room is ridiculous.

As far as this thread is concerned, it is entirely in context to discuss what the women at the Pride march were protesting about. The thread seems to have been started merely to allow a pile on of vitriol against these lesbians and their banners, who had the cheek to go where the trans activists didn't want them to go. However, the reason why they were there with these banners is exactly the unconscionable behaviour of the trans activists that several of us are trying to highlight. It's completely on-topic. It explains these women's actions and puts it in context.

So basically shove off with your "this thread is only here to sling abuse at lesbians who have an issue with trans bullies, and you must on no account actually talk about the trans bullies because for the purpose of this thread trans people by default are all marginalised, vulnerable, defenceless snowflakes."