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Merged A Proof of the Existence of God / Did Someone Create the Universe?

Buddha did not provide the proof originally promised. However, the same basic template can also be used to prove the existence of God.

Here are two mutually exclusive possibilities:

1) God does not exist
2) God exists

The first cannot be definitively shown to be true and is therefore false. As a consequence the second must be true. God exists! QED

Foreman: "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is always the best."
House: "And you think one is simpler than two."
Cameron: "Pretty sure it is, yeah."
House: "Baby shows up. Chase tells you that two people exchanged fluids to create this being. I tell you that one stork dropped the little tyke off in a diaper. You going to go with the two or the one?
Foreman: "I think your argument is specious."
House: "I think your tie is ugly.
 
Foreman: "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is always the best."
House: "And you think one is simpler than two."
Cameron: "Pretty sure it is, yeah."
House: "Baby shows up. Chase tells you that two people exchanged fluids to create this being. I tell you that one stork dropped the little tyke off in a diaper. You going to go with the two or the one?
Foreman: "I think your argument is specious."
House: "I think your tie is ugly.

Well, Occam's Razor actually says 'fewer unexplained entities' iirc, and the stork is a means of delivery and still leaves the problem of where the ankle biter actually came from. But I understand that you're quoting a pretty decent tv show rather than evincing an actual argument, so I'll shut up.
 
Well, I'm still an atheist.
Well, thank God for that!



To be fair, many don't regard logic as part of the domain of omnipotence.
Not quite clear what you're getting at here.

If omnipotence means "can do anything except things which are contradicted" then it's not really omnipotence.

But, using your addition to Buddha's already given definition of his Creator as "anyone who can do anything he wants [bounded by logic]" it still fails. If logic is outside the control of the Creator but bound by it, then it pre-existed the Creator and if that's possible, why could not the universe also exist with logic, not needing a Creator in the first place?


Eta: nor are the scientific laws regarded as a part of deductive logic.
Deductively, we know that the uniformity of nature is a reformulation of the principle of causality: all entities effect each other according to their nature. Scientific laws are nothing more than measurements of the identity of the entities that surround us. Seems deductive to me. Was this a refutation of my points though? Because I can ditch that paragraph and nothing in my argument changes.
 
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As I promised, I am going to present a proof that someone created the Universe. But before doing that I am going to state my philosophical position.

Translation: Preparing the ground to eliminate arguments against your "Proof"

I am a positivist. Being one, I reject several philosophical systems including idealism, realism, scientific realism and the Popper doctrine (he called it "deductivism"). Non-positivists might reject my proof; for example, it is not acceptable to the scientific realists and to the followers of the Popper doctrine.

Translation: Every atheist will reject your proof

From the positivist's point of view a theory or a statement based on never-ending experiment is false (scientific realists hold the opposite point of view). For example, the statement "The laws of physics will always remain in their current form" is false.

Translation: Poisoning the well for debate

Also, for the positivist a theory based on assumption that could not be proved or disproved is false. Scientific realists see thing differently -- for them such theory could be correct.

Translation: More poisoning of the well
There is also another positivist assertion that not everyone accepts. Suppose you have three contradictory explanations of an event. If you can prove that the first two are false this automatically implies that the third one is true, you do not have to prove it. Not everyone accepts this rule -- Popper said that the third remaining statement must be falsifiable in order to be true. But the positivists reject Popper's idea of falsifiability (Popper rejected positivism in return).

Appeal to Authority (your own). You are setting the stage using your own rules to make your proof work. For a general proof to work, it must stand on its own merits and not require a special framework. A proof requiring a framework of rules is only valid within that framework.

Also, it would require that your three contradictory explanations are the only possible explanations to the exclusion of all others. Nothing in any reality works like this.

Now, the proof itself. There are three contradictory statements:
1). The universe was not created, it always existed.
2).The universe came to be by itself, as a result of some process (quantum fluctuation, maybe)
3).Someone produced the universe.

I'll start with the first statement. Suppose you met someone who claims to be as old as the universe (obviously that person is not the Creator). He might be telling the truth or he might be a liar. However, his past is irrelevant to his claim. Naturally you would ask him what kind of evidence does he have to prove that the universe always existed. The best possible evidence would be a videotape showing all stages of the universe's development. Whether the tape is authentic or it is a fake is irrelevant -- it is of infinite length and it cannot be reviewed in its entirety. Being unverifiable, this statement is false.

Moving on to the second statement. Suppose you met an observer who came to be at the same time the universe was produced, as he claims. He also has a videotape showing the process of creation and further evolution of the universe. From the positivist's point of view this is an ideal scenario -- we have an Observer! But his account of events could be incomplete -- he might have been created after the universe had been produced, but he has no knowledge of this sequence of events. The authenticity of his videotape is irrelevant. His testimony neither proves nor disproves that the universe produced itself. For a positivist his claim is false. However, a person who subscribes to scientific realism might be willing to accept his testimony. Everything depends on the individual's personal views.

The only remaining possibility is that the universe was created by someone. Of course, a person who says that he is the Creator is, most likely, an impostor. But his sincerity or lack of it doesn't matter as far as my logical deduction goes.

I am not satisfied with the criteria you set up for dismissing the first two possibilities.

1. "Being unverifiable, this statement is false". No, the statement is unverifiable... that does not mean its false, it means it is unverifiable. If you accept your condition "Being unverifiable, this statement is false" then I can use it to claim that since the existence of God is unverifiable, then he does not exist.

2. "The authenticity of his videotape is irrelevant. His testimony neither proves nor disproves that the universe produced itself. For a positivist his claim is false." Again, if you cannot verify the authenticity of his claim, then you cannot say that the claim is false, you can only say that it is unverifiable.
 
Is it just me, or is anyone else also reading the question "Did someone create the universe?" as being asked in a tone of voice that can only be answered with, "It wasn't me, Mom!"
 
Is it just me, or is anyone else also reading the question "Did someone create the universe?" as being asked in a tone of voice that can only be answered with, "It wasn't me, Mom!"
"Just look at this mess you made! If you don't clean it up immediately, you won't be able to watch reruns of your favorite show, The Fall Guy! I don't want to have to start counting to infinity young man!"
 
"Just look at this mess you made! If you don't clean it up immediately, you won't be able to watch reruns of your favorite show, The Fall Guy! I don't want to have to start counting to infinity young man!"

"What the hell are you doing? There's water everywhere"!

"But you said to clean it up......."

"I said clean it up, not Flood the place!"
 
Is it just me, or is anyone else also reading the question "Did someone create the universe?" as being asked in a tone of voice that can only be answered with, "It wasn't me, Mom!"


“But I’ve already asked your brother and your sister, and they both said they didn’t do it, so you must have done it.”



Putting the response in the same form as Buddha’s “proof”.
 
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"Proof" and "burden of proof" are not the same thing.


If there is a burden of explanation upon those of us (probably inc. you also?) who say that we do not believe in God for evidential reasons, then that burden can only be to produce the evidence against the claimed God. And I just did that (as anyone else can). "Proof" has nothing to do with it ... we should be talking about evidence, not "proof".
 
Not quite clear what you're getting at here.

If omnipotence means "can do anything except things which are contradicted" then it's not really omnipotence.

But, using your addition to Buddha's already given definition of his Creator as "anyone who can do anything he wants [bounded by logic]" it still fails. If logic is outside the control of the Creator but bound by it, then it pre-existed the Creator and if that's possible, why could not the universe also exist with logic, not needing a Creator in the first place?

Um, because logic isn't the sort of thing that calls things into existence? Just really not what logic "does".
 
Deductively, we know that the uniformity of nature is a reformulation of the principle of causality: all entities effect each other according to their nature. Scientific laws are nothing more than measurements of the identity of the entities that surround us. Seems deductive to me. Was this a refutation of my points though? Because I can ditch that paragraph and nothing in my argument changes.

The principle of causality isn't derived by deduction either.
 
As I promised, I am going to present a proof that someone created the Universe. But before doing that I am going to state my philosophical position.

I am a positivist. Being one, I reject several philosophical systems including idealism, realism, scientific realism and the Popper doctrine (he called it "deductivism"). Non-positivists might reject my proof; for example, it is not acceptable to the scientific realists and to the followers of the Popper doctrine.

From the positivist's point of view a theory or a statement based on never-ending experiment is false (scientific realists hold the opposite point of view). For example, the statement "The laws of physics will always remain in their current form" is false.

Also, for the positivist a theory based on assumption that could not be proved or disproved is false. Scientific realists see thing differently -- for them such theory could be correct.

There is also another positivist assertion that not everyone accepts. Suppose you have three contradictory explanations of an event. If you can prove that the first two are false this automatically implies that the third one is true, you do not have to prove it. Not everyone accepts this rule -- Popper said that the third remaining statement must be falsifiable in order to be true. But the positivists reject Popper's idea of falsifiability (Popper rejected positivism in return).

Now, the proof itself. There are three contradictory statements:
1). The universe was not created, it always existed.2).The universe came to be by itself, as a result of some process (quantum fluctuation, maybe)
3).Someone produced the universe.

I'll start with the first statement. Suppose you met someone who claims to be as old as the universe (obviously that person is not the Creator). He might be telling the truth or he might be a liar. However, his past is irrelevant to his claim. Naturally you would ask him what kind of evidence does he have to prove that the universe always existed. The best possible evidence would be a videotape showing all stages of the universe's development. Whether the tape is authentic or it is a fake is irrelevant -- it is of infinite length and it cannot be reviewed in its entirety. Being unverifiable, this statement is false.
.... <etc>

.



Without looking at your 2nd and 3rd reasons, the first reason is obviously wrong to begin with. In fact that first statement does not even make any sense … the “person as old as the universe” and his “videotape” are totally irrelevant to, and have zero to do with your conclusion which simply claims “it is of infinite length and it cannot be reviewed in its entirety. Being unverifiable, this statement is false”.

Firstly which statement (of your own) do you say is false? Secondly, just because a universe might (hypothetically in your words) have been like an “infinitely long videotape”, that does not mean it is “unverifiable" (what exactly do you say is unverifiable? ... what do you mean by "unverifiable"?), and that supposed “infinite length” (as you just called it) does not make the existence of this universe “false”.

Your first and most obvious problem is that you have a very mixed-up, confused, set of ideas about what you imagine to be the nature of, and possible origin of, the universe that we live in.

But if you really want to know the true answers to all such questions about this universe, then modern science has shown itself to be by far the best and most accurate way of doing that. In fact, science has shown that it is the only known accurate way for us to learn about the origin and properties of this universe.

And whilst we do not yet have a complete “Theory” of exactly how and why our universe exists, or what existed “before” the earliest phases of the Big Bang, the most likely explanation which most cosmological physicists now seem to agree on, is that the energy which produced the Big Bang (i.e. energy released by the "Bang"), always existed (i.e. various interacting energy fields existed for an unknown and/or indefinite (“infinite” if you like) “time” before the Big Bang itself).

Now, in that brief explanation I put a number of key words in parenthesis, e.g. words like “before” and “time”, and that's to indicate that those words are just shorthand for a situation where as far as we can tell, there really was no “time” (or space) before the Big Bang, and hence there really was also no “before” in that sense of an earlier "time".

I could actually explain all of that to you, in a way that any reasonable educated honest person should be able to easily understand. However, I know from previous experience that it's a complete waste of time trying to explain such concepts to theists who simply refuse to believe anything that rules out their belief in God.
 
Let’s try another thought experiment in this framework.

I assert that Fred Rogers was the second coming of Christ. This leaves us with the following possibilities:

1. Fred Rogers WAS the second coming of Christ.

2. Someone else was the second coming of Christ.

Now, using the OP’s framework we can pick one to declare non-provable, declare that option false, and then declare the other option proven. For example:

We can’t prove anyone else was the second coming of Christ, so #2 has to be wrong. This makes #1 correct.

Now, anyone with a remedial grasp of logic can see why this is absurd. The original list of options leaves out a host of possibilities, such as there has been no second coming of Christ yet. We also can’t declare an option disproven just because we can’t prove it.
 
Your evidence for the existence of a Creator is ?
That's not how evidence works.

And why do options 1 and 2 require an infinite library of video tapes, but option 3 is just accepted on its face with nothing but bare assertion to support it?
Infinite library of videotapes is the best possible scenario that assumes existence of an observer. For a positivist this is the requirement, if there is no observer the theory is false right from the start, one doesn't have to prove it.
Once the first two scenarios are excluded, the third one is automatically true.
 

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