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TERFs crash London Pride

I'm more interested in the explanation for the serried ranks of blokes lining up to support the guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.

No wait, I'm not. I know the explanation. Male solidarity, and you get to oppress women while still pretending to be right-on and progressive. Way to go, guys.
 
lol "male solidarity" is your explanation for people who are pro-trans in this regard?
 
Wait, what's the explanation for the women who are in support of this? Is that also "male solidarity?"

Internalized misogyny?
 
Rolfe said:
I'm more interested in the explanation for the serried ranks of blokes lining up to support the guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.

No wait, I'm not. I know the explanation. Male solidarity, and you get to oppress women while still pretending to be right-on and progressive. Way to go, guys.
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Where is the evidence of such a "campaign"? It seems to be as much in the minds of the protestors as the myth of the predatory male pretending to be female of the US restroom wars. All the transgender people I know just want to get on with their lives in the face of society-wider prejudice.
 
Haven't you heard? Most trans women are actually predatory men that want access to "women's spaces"

Oh wait, no they're not. This also only applies to trans women not trans men.
 
There's obviously a great deal of selective reading going on here, so I'll leave you to your communal woman-bashing session.
 
Rolfe said:
There's obviously a great deal of selective reading going on here, so I'll leave you to your communal woman-bashing session.
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You didn't even try for selective reading, you went to outright fabrication
 
The anti-trans bigotry here is eerily similar to the kinds of posts made by Skeptic Tank regarding POC and "multiculturalism." They come across the same way — the self-justification and self-victimhood... it's sad in a way.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm more interested in the explanation for the serried ranks of blokes lining up to support the guys in dresses and bad wigs in their campaign to colonise and subvert women's protected spaces and groups.

No wait, I'm not. I know the explanation. Male solidarity, and you get to oppress women while still pretending to be right-on and progressive. Way to go, guys.
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How does that explain people like me, who see the comments they make about transmen, who then think, "Well, that's nothing at all like what I've seen my own nephew going through the last few years"? Some of us actually know the people they're bashing, you know.

And yeah, it is bashing. I'm hoping my nephew never runs into anyone like this, because that would suck.
 
Horatius said:
How does that explain people like me, who see the comments they make about transmen, who then think, "Well, that's nothing at all like what I've seen my own nephew going through the last few years"? Some of us actually know the people they're bashing, you know.

And yeah, it is bashing. I'm hoping my nephew never runs into anyone like this, because that would suck.
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I've had the privilege of knowing some remarkable trans people, like Vandy Beth Glenn. The notion that she's a "man in a dress with a bad wig" is offensive and gross.

Fortunately, the scientific, medical, and legal system all disagree with that assessment.
 
I think the blog that Rolfe is referring to (and blogs like it) are largely focused on people like Danielle Muscato, who declare themselves female and then do absolutely nothing to attempt to pass. I have no idea what Ms. Muscato's motives are, and I don't feel comfortable openly criticizing her in this post-gender world, but I do wonder what her deal is. People like her seem to be trolling, even if they aren't, and they make things very difficult for everyday transwomen who are just trying to fit in and get by.

I'm someone who isn't very bothered by nudity and things like that, but I think I would be somewhat startled if I ran into Ms. Muscato in a woman's locker room. She has evidently said in interviews that she is unable to begin hormone therapy at this time for health reasons. Okay, that makes sense. But why not have a shave? Wear a more "feminine" suit or something? I don't know. Anything. But see, now I open myself up to criticism from the postmodernists - "Bigot!" they thunder. "Are you reducing femininity to hairless faces and manner of dress?!"

I... uh... oh god... what?

It's a tricky issue.
 
Trouble with those radfem sites is, they leave no room for categorization. The issue of transgender people and the issue of the postmodern "gender is a state of mind" crowd are two different issues. Radfem blogs and subreddits like Gender Critical quite happily mix them together and declare all transgender people mentally-ill fetishists (or self-harmers, in cases of transmen). This is offensive, obviously. This is what turns people away from any realistic concerns the feminists might actually have.

I can think of one example. Many radfem lesbians are making the claim that they are being called bigots for not wanting to be sexually intimate with transwomen who still have their penises. Is this happening outside of Tumblr? Who can say. But if that is really happening, it's terrible. The people re-labeling sexual orientation and preferences as bigotry are way off. They're not much different from the "conversion therapy" activists of times past. "Just soldier through this sex you don't want because it's the right thing to do." No, that isn't right.

Has this actually become a significant problem in real life, though? I don't know. I've had one person make this argument to me in the past (genital preferences are bigotry), and I'm not convinced they were serious. It was online, and Poe's law was very much in effect.
 
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isissxn said:
Trouble with those radfem sites is, they leave no room for categorization. The issue of transgender people and the issue of the postmodern "gender is a state of mind" crowd are two different issues. Radfem blogs and subreddits like Gender Critical quite happily mix them together and declare all transgender people mentally-ill fetishists (or self-harmers, in cases of transmen). This is offensive, obviously. This is what turns people away from any realistic concerns the feminists might actually have.

I can think of one example. Many radfem lesbians are making the claim that they are being called bigots for not wanting to be sexually intimate with transwomen who still have their penises. Is this happening outside of Tumblr? Who can say. But if that is really happening, it's terrible. The people re-labeling sexual orientation and preferences as bigotry are way off. They're not much different from the "conversion therapy" activists of times past. "Just soldier through this sex you don't want because it's the right thing to do." No, that isn't right.

Has this actually become a significant problem in real life?
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I've long held a rule that opinions that don't exist "in real life don't count and opinions that exist only online, on college campus's, think pieces, or other insular and detached realms are, at best, intellectual curiosities.

Yeah you can go on Tumblr for five minutes and find all sorts of "You're an evil cislord bigot if you refuse to have sex with a woman just because she has a penis" nonsense. I tend to ignore stuff like that.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I've long held a rule that opinions that don't exist "in real life don't count and opinions that exist only online, on college campus's, think pieces, or other insular and detached realms are, at best, intellectual curiosities.
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What's the prophylactic barrier that prevents opinions expressed on a college campus from being carried off campus by the students?

Isn't the whole point of college to give young adults a set of ideas and experiences that they will bring forward with them into civil society? Is there any reason to think that ideas that are expressed openly on college campuses aren't held privately by many of the students even after they graduate?

The crazy radfem professor may choose to spew her craziness exclusively from the safe space of her ivory tower, but what of all her students? Do they leave her ideas behind when they graduate? Is that how we think college works? Is that how we think college should work?
 
theprestige said:
What's the prophylactic barrier that prevents opinions expressed on a college campus from being carried off campus by the students?
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Essentially? The marketplace of ideas. Concepts which can only survive unopposed just... aren't worth factoring into the debate.

Is this some perfect exact science? No but it works more often than not.
 
isissxn said:
But see, now I open myself up to criticism from the postmodernists - "Bigot!" they thunder. "Are you reducing femininity to hairless faces and manner of dress?!"

I... uh... oh god... what?

It's a tricky issue.
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The problem is, generalizing to an entire group based on the actions of one member, or just a few members, is literally the definition of prejudice. To me, it seems no different from my racist uncle, who demanded all Syrian refugees be thrown out of Canada because of one guy who beat his wife.

Yes, dealing with the one ******* causing problems might be difficult, but that's no reason to just declare a pox on all their houses.


isissxn said:
I can think of one example. Many radfem lesbians are making the claim that they are being called bigots for not wanting to be sexually intimate with transwomen who still have their penises.
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I have to ask, like cismen who make the same claims, why are they going out of their way to make a point of this? Why do they feel the need for a flamboyant public declaration of their preferences, before even being approached with any such offers? Why can't they just say, "No thanks!" to the individual people who make individual requests?

This whole, "I don't want to be tricked into sleeping with a man!" thing is, again, exactly the argument that ******** make when they claim a "Gay Panic" defense for bashing transwomen.

And of course, this whole "woman with a penis" argument does absolutely nothing to explain why they also bash transmen.

Them just being actual bigots explains it all quite well, though.
 
Horatius said:
I have to ask, like cismen who make the same claims, why are they going out of their way to make a point of this? Why do they feel the need for a flamboyant public declaration of their preferences, before even being approached with any such offers? Why can't they just say, "No thanks!" to the individual people who make individual requests?

This whole, "I don't want to be tricked into sleeping with a man!" thing is, again, exactly the argument that ******** make when they claim a "Gay Panic" defense for bashing transwomen.

And of course, this whole "woman with a penis" argument does absolutely nothing to explain why they also bash transmen.

Them just being actual bigots explains it all quite well, though.
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I'm not in any way defending the bigotry, but I must offer one quick correction. The lesbians I am quoting were mostly referring to accusations of bigotry they experienced after the fact, either on failed dates or following them. Did these events really happen as relayed though? I have no way of knowing.

The women on Gender Critical (for example) obviously have a strong anti-trans agenda in general, so I sometimes have trouble taking the details of their more outrageous stories at face-value. A lot of the events are just a little too convenient. To hear these women tell it, every transwoman they know is a sexually pushy, bearded antifeminist who lectures them all day and tries to feel them up all night. Literally none of the transwomen I've ever known were like that. Not one. They were just people.

So I do wonder sometimes if certain GC people aren't taking crazy posts they've seen on Tumblr and presenting them as actual meatspace narratives that totally happened, in order to influence fence-sitters and advance an anti-trans cultural agenda.

Even if their stories are completely true, I see them as having nothing to do with regular transpeople who are just trying to use the bathroom. They can come pee in my room, for all I care. They're welcome to be nude absolutely anywhere I am. I don't care if they were born a dolphin. In case that wasn't clear.
 
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