Cont: The Trump Presidency VIII

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JoeMorgue said:
Again my issue isn't with complaints/arguments that Trump was his standard jerkass self and didn't follow basic diplomatic courtesy.

My issue is with the idea that Trump was under any obligation to follow any specific "Royal Protocol" in regards to Queen Elizabeth herself, protocols that are, like it or not, rooted in how a subject should interact with their monarch that have no place in one head of state's interaction with another.

This isn't standard "Trump's being Trump." This is a head of state being expected to put himself into place of subservient genuflection to another head of state.

Yeah Trump was a jerk to Merkel and May and countless others and that needs to be addressed, but nobody was ******** kittens because he briefly stepped in front of them because of "protocol."

"Royal Protocol" and "Basic diplomatic and human manners" are not the same thing by a huge margin. There's a world of difference between being expected to understand and follow basic "How one head of state should act around another" and being expected to follow a list of specific "Protocols" tailored to a specific person that includes such nonsense as how to pronounce the "a" sound in "M'am."

Nothing like this: (Bolding Mine, link below)

...has any place in two heads of state meeting.

And honestly if The UK wants to get angry because our elected President didn't follow "protocol" when interacting with their symbolic monarch, I don't think we're the ones being unreasonable here.

Trump was under no obligation to act any differently around Queen Elizabeth then he is around the Prime Minster of Canada or the President of Estonia or the Sultan of Brunei or the Head of the Lollipop Guild.

Just because Trump can do nothing right doesn't always put him in the wrong.

*http://fortune.com/2018/07/12/trump-queen-meeting-protocol/
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I agree with this mostly. But one treats the head of State of ANY host country with respect.

I really don't give a damn about Royalty and don't really give a damn about protocol except I believe guests should remember they are guests and attempt to be respectful of their hosts.

This incident is just one of many that demonstrates that Trump is respectful or deferential to no one...except maybe Putin

I view it this way. Imagine you had two guests. One of which was charming, gracious and likable. The other, was abrasive an obnoxious. You would hardly care that Mr. Charming made a faux pas. On the other hand, it would be just another reason to dislike the ass. So the truth is, this doesn't really matter.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again my issue isn't with complaints/arguments that Trump was his standard jerkass self and didn't follow basic diplomatic courtesy.

My issue is with the idea that Trump was under any obligation to follow any specific "Royal Protocol" in regards to Queen Elizabeth herself, protocols that are, like it or not, rooted in how a subject should interact with their monarch that have no place in one head of state's interaction with another.

This isn't standard "Trump's being Trump." This is a head of state being expected to put himself into place of subservient genuflection to another head of state.

Yeah Trump was a jerk to Merkel and May and countless others and that needs to be addressed, but nobody was ******** kittens because he briefly stepped in front of them because of "protocol."

"Royal Protocol" and "Basic diplomatic and human manners" are not the same thing by a huge margin. There's a world of difference between being expected to understand and follow basic "How one head of state should act around another" and being expected to follow a list of specific "Protocols" tailored to a specific person that includes such nonsense as how to pronounce the "a" sound in "M'am."

Nothing like this: (Bolding Mine, link below)




...has any place in two heads of state meeting.

And honestly if The UK wants to get angry because our elected President didn't follow "protocol" when interacting with their symbolic monarch, I don't think we're the ones being unreasonable here.

Trump was under no obligation to act any differently around Queen Elizabeth then he is around the Prime Minster of Canada or the President of Estonia or the Sultan of Brunei or the Head of the Lollipop Guild.

Just because Trump can do nothing right doesn't always put him in the wrong.

*http://fortune.com/2018/07/12/trump-queen-meeting-protocol/
Click to expand...


I think the Royal protocol is a bit of a joke. Being aware of a tiny 92 year old woman around you is just basic courtesy.
 
a_unique_person said:
I think the Royal protocol is a bit of a joke. Being aware of a tiny 92 year old woman around you is just basic courtesy.
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acbytesla said:
I agree with this mostly. But one treats the head of State of ANY host country with respect.
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I put the "But basic diplomatic protocol and manners should still be maintained" clause in my statement multiple times.

I really don't give a damn about Royalty and don't really give a damn about protocol except I believe guests should remember they are guests and attempt to be respectful of their hosts.
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This has nothing to do with who's in who's "house." The "Protocol" for meeting the Queen wouldn't change if Trump was hosting her at a formal dinner at the White House.

This isn't good manners in someone's home, this is an explicit demand for subservience. This is placing one head of state above another because one's a Queen and the other is a mere President.

I view it this way. Imagine you had two guests. One of which was charming, gracious and likable. The other, was abrasive an obnoxious. You would hardly care that Mr. Charming made a faux pas. On the other hand, it would be just another reason to dislike the ass. So the truth is, this doesn't really matter.
Click to expand...

And if I'm at someone house for dinner and the one of the homeowners ask me nicely to wipe my feet on entering and and the other homeowner asks me to wipe my feet and refer to them as "My Lord and Master" and bow my head everytime he walks past not wiping my feet doesn't change that I'm not wrong for refusing to call them Lord and avert my gaze.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Alright controversial opinion.


Trump should have treated her with a lot more basic respect and... just basic human interaction standards then he did but, and it pains me to say anything apologetic about Trump, him not following some subservient routine in body language and Royal Court procedures doesn't bother me in the least.
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I tend to agree.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I put the "But basic diplomatic protocol and manners should still be maintained" clause in my statement multiple times.



This has nothing to do with who's in who's "house." The "Protocol" for meeting the Queen wouldn't change if Trump was hosting her at a formal dinner at the White House.

This isn't good manners in someone's home, this is an explicit demand for subservience. This is placing one head of state above another because one's a Queen and the other is a mere President.



And if I'm at someone house for dinner and the one of the homeowners ask me nicely to wipe my feet on entering and and the other homeowner asks me to wipe my feet and refer to them as "My Lord and Master" and bow my head everytime he walks past not wiping my feet doesn't change that I'm not wrong for refusing to call them Lord and avert my gaze.
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Straw-man much?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I put the "But basic diplomatic protocol and manners should still be maintained" clause in my statement multiple times.



This has nothing to do with who's in who's "house." The "Protocol" for meeting the Queen wouldn't change if Trump was hosting her at a formal dinner at the White House.

This isn't good manners in someone's home, this is an explicit demand for subservience. This is placing one head of state above another because one's a Queen and the other is a mere President.

And if I'm at someone house for dinner and the one of the homeowners ask me nicely to wipe my feet on entering and and the other homeowner asks me to wipe my feet and refer to them as "My Lord and Master" and bow my head everytime he walks past not wiping my feet doesn't change that I'm not wrong for refusing to call them Lord and avert my gaze.
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But of course that was never asked of Trump. Not exactly a precise analogy.
 
JoeMorgue said:
If you say so. Telling one head of state he has to be subservient to another is not something that can be excused away as "Basic diplomatic courtesy."
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Sorry the queen isn't Putin. Trump happily kisses Vlad's ass.

Walking behind the queen and referring to her by her title is hardly being subservient...now is it? Straw man much?
 
JoeMorgue said:
If you say so. Telling one head of state he has to be subservient to another is not something that can be excused away as "Basic diplomatic courtesy."
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Regardless of her actual position, above, below, or even to a sitting US President, he looks like a douchebag.
 
If Trump didn't want to follow protocol, why did he meet with the queen in the first place? It's all about protocols. There's nothing else involved.

My take, Trump wanted the credit for visiting royalty but he was too lazy to learn proper etiquette.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
If Trump didn't want to follow protocol, why did he meet with the queen in the first place? It's all about protocols. There's nothing else involved.

My take, Trump wanted the credit for visiting royalty but he was too lazy to learn proper etiquette.
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Exactly. That's all she does. It's all ceremonial. If Trump can't be bothered to learn and follow some minor rules of courtesy, why bother meeting her at all?
 
Dabop said:
And yet there are protocols at the White House too, should a foreign head of state visit, are they optional too???
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EXACTLY. Ever see the pomp involved in a State Dinner? I hate the idea of royalty. Any royalty. And yet I would do my best to follow the proper protocol.

Still, I hate this conversation. There are a so many reasons to dislike Trump. Such as how he treated the other leaders at NATO and the G7. So you will excuse me if I'd rather move on from his faux pass with the queen.
 
Trump should have followed protocol but that does NOT include bowing to the Queen. No head of state should to bow to another head of state. Even if one of them is a total douchebag like Trump, it's still the office that is being represented, not the person in that office.
 
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