Max Boot: Support Dems

[Regnad Kcin]

Trump stating some of the white nationalists are fine people is not showing he is a racist.

Trump, over the course of decades demonstrating racist behavior, shows he’s a racist.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[tyr_13]

You say the members of International Skeptics like to follow evidence and logic. So do I. I research and explore many different sources to try and understand the issue I'm giving an opinion on.

When giving evidence on why I have a certain opinion I would need to post my sources, I'm unable to do that at this time because of a required number of 50 posts.

I will admit I was overwhelmed at the response I received yesterday and posted replies way to quickly. Could have done a much better job. Many times a new member is ignored on forums like this and I appreciate that you read what I had to say and gave me a chance to have a discussion.

I'm sticking around and hopefully I can do a better job. Thanks for the advise.

You don't actually have to link to cite sources. A short description of where to find it with keywords is usually enough for people who are interested in a claim. Of course a direct link is better, and good edict when you can do so.

An example; say I wanted to support my contention that the stats of the Wallace A479 sword is not the best example to use of a typical fighting 16th century hand and a half sword because it was assembled from disparate components and perhaps and earlier blade. Without having the ability to link, I could always do something like in-line cite something sure to bring it up on most Google searchers. In this case I could say something like, "This is supported and explained by Toby of the Wallace collection (youtube Wallace Collection Longsword A479 tod). A quick copy-paste later would bring one to the exact video I wanted to link to.

You'll get a lot of strong reactions here, especially when making claims that don't line up with what others have observed, but it isn't actually that difficult to cut through the noise, because it still has a fundamental basis in at least wanting to seem like critical thinking. The noise to signal ratio, even in the politics section, still compares favorably to most other places. It is also definitely not an echo chamber, but it certain can seem like that when the evidence is stacked against your argument (whether you know it is or not).

 

[Fudbucker]

Before I joined this forum I was told it was mostly liberal but that didn't stop me from joining.

It's very liberal and it's expected that if you make a claim (e.g., Obama vs Trump job creation) you should be prepared to back it up with a reputable source.

I have not had the time to read through the threads here in the Political forum.

Pretty much every aspect of this presidency has been commented on. You should definitely read through other threads.

Having discussion and debate can end up very time consuming and something I didn't consider is when it's mostly liberal the conservative is going to have a lot of talking to do. The regrettable thing is nobody is going to change their minds. A lot of back and forth and you end up exhausted and especially if you're all alone in trying to get your opinion across to many who don't agree.

Even if some minds are closed, information is exchanged. And people do change their minds.

Telling me this may not be the forum for me may be correct. I'm brand new with only a few posts and can't post sources. Found a lot of good information to support my claims but it will be impossible to share without posting the source.

You can put spaces in the links.

Seems to me if you disapprove of the illegals coming across our borders being detained, just say so and quit using the word cage to try and make your point.

Children were being held in cages without their parents.

This happened under Obama, and here's a wonderful breakdown of the differences between the two administrations: https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/17488458/obama-immigration-policy-family-separation-border

I assume you use the word cage because you're wanting it to sound like the people are being treated like lowly animals.

No, those are actual cages.

If these children were in rooms with walls you would be emphasizing that as something horrible too.

Yes, because they were forcibly separated from their parents to deter others from coming here. That is state-sanctioned child abuse.

I stand by my opinion the pictures I've seen of children being detained at the border do not look like they are in cages but in large rooms with fencing for the walls.

A cage, in other words.

I'm sure it all has to do with the number of staff they have to watch these people and the number of facilities they have available to house them or I should say detain them The average time the children stay in the fenced in areas is three days, depends on the circumstances.

Source for this claim? The government is still trying to reunite separated families, weeks later. Can you imagine what that would be like for a little kid? And these kids then have to go to court:

"Immigration Judge John W. Richardson, who presided over the boy’s case, told the lawyer representing Johan that he was “embarrassed” to ask if the boy could understand the court proceedings.

“I’m embarrassed to ask it, because I don’t know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law,” Richardson said."
http://thehill.com/latino/396005-ch...tion-court-to-be-reunited-with-parents-report

It's like something out of Kafka.

Hopefully our immigration bills will get passed and we can start solving all of our problems to do with immigration

"our"? You mean the GOP? You guys control Congress, what are you waiting for?

The Southern Rally and Trump saying some are fine people. From what I could find from reading different sources, not all of the people protesting were members of the extremists groups that were protesting at the rally. You had people protesting against the extremists groups. Trump denounced hated and bigotry. If you don't care for Trump of course you're going to hear what he said as an endorsement for racism. Trump explained not all of the people at the rally were bigoted and full of hate, that some were fine people. I don't see interpret that statement as showing Trump is a racist.

There are two issues at play:
A) can a racist be a "good person"? It depends. We all have latent prejudices. My parents are stereotypical old white bigots. They're good people. They also don't fall in with people carrying tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us", as is what happened at Charlottesville. And one of those "fine people" murdered a woman with his car. People seem to forget about that. So, were the racists at Charlottesville "fine people"? No.

B). This is an easy one. Elected officials should NEVER condone racism. If a person condones racism, as Trump did, it is valid to assume that person is racist. And in Trump's case, there is a lot of racist behavior going on over the years.

It was said I've used all kinds of incorrect date, what data?

Yes I think Obama is a citizen of the US and was born in Hawaii.

Excellent. So what do you think of Trump's effort to spread a lie that Obama wasn't born here? That's pretty sleazy, isn't it? Pretty dishonest? And 51% of Republicans STILL believe he was born in Kenya (as of Dec. 2017). What do you think about that?

As of now Trump is doing a good job with our economy. I haven't compared this to any other Presidents but if you want to compare job growth between Trump and Obama, Obama did a good job with creating jobs but job wages suffered. Thing is right now our economy is good. I'm waiting to see how the tariffs turn out and I am expecting some ups and downs over the coming months. Hopefully the tariffs will turn out a good thing.

Remember when all those jobs were being created under Obama? What did Republicans always talk about? The labor participation rate. It's the percentage of people who can work who are actually working. Let's see how it's been doing under Trump. It was 62.9% in Jan of 2017. It's currently 62.9%. Why do you think there's been zero growth?

Let's look at the deficit under Trump and his GOP controlled Congress:
2017: $666 billion
2018: $530 billion, so far, on track for about $800 billion.

So, if you throw a trillion dollars at the economy and slash environmental regulations, you're going to get some GDP growth. Not the 3% that Trump promised though: the last two quarters have been below 3%: https://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdp_glance.htm

I'm a woman and I was not a supporter of Donald Trump but he got elected and I am going to support him because his success is our countries success.

I had a foolish hope that Trump would grow into the job. It was foolish because I knew he was a narcissist. This is the Mayo Clinic's definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them."

Remind you of anyone?

 

[Fudbucker]

Fud, you scared him (or her) off!

We didn't even get TIF to the secret ISF initiation ritual with the the surprisingly sexy but doomed goat. That's the best part!

You're lucky. I got the Stonecutter treatment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXtQMz1RGNw

 

[Joecool]

Remind you of anyone?

Reminds me of many politicians. Although I will concede that most politicians are more eloquent than the current POTUS.

 

[Fudbucker]

Reminds me of many politicians. Although I will concede that most politicians are more eloquent than the current POTUS.

You think Mayo's NPD description matches Obama? Troubled relationships? Financial problems? Lack of empathy? Vulnerable to the slightest criticism? Deep need for excessive admiration? I'm not seeing that. I don't see it with Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, or Reagan, either. Nixon was before my time.

 

[ThoughtIsFree]

Links can be put in your post if they are broken up. Other posters will be happy to fix them when they quote you. That’s how we roll around here.

Thanks, I'll do this.

 

[ThoughtIsFree]

You don't actually have to link to cite sources. A short description of where to find it with keywords is usually enough for people who are interested in a claim. Of course a direct link is better, and good edict when you can do so.

An example; say I wanted to support my contention that the stats of the Wallace A479 sword is not the best example to use of a typical fighting 16th century hand and a half sword because it was assembled from disparate components and perhaps and earlier blade. Without having the ability to link, I could always do something like in-line cite something sure to bring it up on most Google searchers. In this case I could say something like, "This is supported and explained by Toby of the Wallace collection (youtube Wallace Collection Longsword A479 tod). A quick copy-paste later would bring one to the

You'll get a lot of strong reactions here, especially when making claims that don't line up with what others have observed, but it isn't actually that difficult to cut through the noise, because it still has a fundamental basis in at least wanting to seem like critical thinking. The noise to signal ratio, even in the politics section, still compares favorably to most other places. It is also definitely not an echo chamber, but it certain can seem like that when the evidence is stacked against your argument (whether you know it is or not).

Thanks for all the useful information and I look forward to participating. I had forgotten how time consuming this is.

 

[theprestige]

NVM, I might be wrong about how links work here.

 

[tyr_13]

Thanks for all the useful information and I look forward to participating. I had forgotten how time consuming this is.

It really is! The main reason I don't post often any longer, although I do lurk a bit.

You will get some flack from some people if you are too busy to build perfect posts and whatnot, but simply saying you don't have the time to thoroughly investigate a detail is often seen by many here as fair.

But keep in mind; even if you weren't going to present an argument you believe here it is also time consuming to support your own views using critical thinking and valid evidence. Trying to justify it to others is a mechanism that can force you to justify, rationally, the belief for yourself.

Which is the main reason I still post here.

 

[ThoughtIsFree]

It's very liberal and it's expected that if you make a claim (e.g., Obama vs Trump job creation) you should be prepared to back it up with a reputable source.

Even if some minds are closed, information is exchanged. And people do change their minds

I don't remember anyone ever changing their minds on the forums I've posted on. I look forward to that experience.

You can put spaces in the links.

I'll do that, I'm still researching immigration, a lot to take in and who knows what sources are accurate. I'm reading government websites right now but not getting all the information I'm after. I know journalist who are liberal tend to twist their information to satisfy their leftist views and same with conservatives. Shoot you can't get honest answers from any of our Politicians, can you? I've been going with what I think is the true but I could be wrong and I want to know the facts.

This happened under Obama, and here's a wonderful breakdown of the differences between the two administrations:

No, those are actual cages.

I'm not changing my opinion on the places I've seen where children are detained, I don't view it as cages. I see the detention area as the safest way to keep the kids at bay and give them security. I don't think a play pen or crib is a cage either.
I feel bad for the children and the parents, it's a horrible situation to find yourself in.

Yes, because they were forcibly separated from their parents to deter others from coming here. That is state-sanctioned child abuse.

I don't know if children being separated from their parents was solely done as a deterrent. I'm considering they decided to separate the children from adults, parents etc and decided it may serve as a deterrent as an after thought. In the beginning they were saying the children were separated because the adult or parent was under arrest and being detained in a separate area. Like if you were arrested and had your child with you, the child would not go to jail with you. I can't find what I think are actual facts about all taking place. If i knew the actually facts I may not agree with all taking place but can't find enough information that I feel is the truth in order to form an opinion. I do want a secure border and to stop illegal immigration. I'm in favor of keeping the Dreamers and not making them leave.
I'm trying to find out why all of these people come to America illegally, who is sending them here and what do they really know about what will happen to them once they're here?

A cage, in other words.

Nope not a cage, a large room with see through walls.

Source for this claim? The government is still trying to reunite separated families, weeks later. Can you imagine what that would be like for a little kid? And these kids then have to go to court:

"Immigration Judge John W. Richardson, who presided over the boy’s case, told the lawyer representing Johan that he was “embarrassed” to ask if the boy could understand the court proceedings.

“I’m embarrassed to ask it, because I don’t know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law,” Richardson said."


It's like something out of Kafka.

I realize the immigration issues are something that is causing a lot of stress and emotional hardship for many. In our Country kids are separated from their parents everyday, a very sad situation. A lot of these kids coming into America illegally were in bad environments before coming here. I'm sure many of the children are traumatized and will suffer from all their emotional abuse for years to come, hopefully not the younger ones but who knows.

"our"? You mean the GOP? You guys control Congress, what are you waiting for?

Heck if I know they don't agree on everything in the bill, nothing new.

There are two issues at play:
A) can a racist be a "good person"? It depends. We all have latent prejudices. My parents are stereotypical old white bigots. They're good people. They also don't fall in with people carrying tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us", as is what happened at Charlottesville[/URL]. And one of those "fine people" murdered a woman with his car. People seem to forget about that. So, were the racists at Charlottesville "fine people"? No.

B). This is an easy one. Elected officials should NEVER condone racism. If a person condones racism, as Trump did, it is valid to assume that person is racist. And in Trump's case, there is a lot of racist behavior going on over the years.

I agree Trump said the wrong thing by saying some were fine people. He made a mistake, I hope, I'm not seeing him as racist but I do know he's not a Politician and this is new to him. I expected many mistakes from Trump.

Excellent. So what do you think of Trump's effort to spread a lie that Obama wasn't born here? That's pretty sleazy, isn't it? Pretty dishonest? And 51% of Republicans STILL believe he was born in Kenya . What do you think about that?

Seems to me Trump really thought Obama was not a citizen.

Remember when all those jobs were being created under Obama? What did Republicans always talk about? The labor participation rate. It's the percentage of people who can work who are actually working. Let's see how it's been doing under Trump. It was 62.9% in Jan of 2017. It's currently 62.9%[/URL]. Why do you think there's been zero growth?

Let's look at the deficit under Trump and his GOP controlled Congress:
2017: $666 billion
2018: $530 billion, so far, on track for about $800 billion.

So, if you throw a trillion dollars at the economy and slash environmental regulations, you're going to get some GDP growth. Not the 3% that Trump promised though: the last two quarters have been below 3%:

I'm not the smartest person when understanding all involved with economics.
I do know the US is doing well right now with job growth, unemployment etc. Have no idea how long it's going to last.

I do know with the Harley Davidson Plant they are having problems and closed a big plant in Ks or maybe it was Mo. The Harley is not selling like it once was. Didn't especially like hearing Trump make a threat to Harley Davidson if they took their manufacturing out of the Country but that's Trump. He does a lot of things I don't care for.

I had a foolish hope that Trump would grow into the job. It was foolish because I knew he was a narcissist. This is the Mayo Clinic's definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them."

Remind you of anyone?

I too am still waiting for him to grow into the job. Yes that description fits but I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist. He's got some issues but hopefully his Presidency will turn out well for us. This tariff thingy has me on edge, what a risk he's taking.

I haven't a clue how the Trump Presidency is going to end, hopefully good but I think anything is possible.

 

[ThoughtIsFree]

It really is! The main reason I don't post often any longer, although I do lurk a bit.

You will get some flack from some people if you are too busy to build perfect posts and whatnot, but simply saying you don't have the time to thoroughly investigate a detail is often seen by many here as fair.

But keep in mind; even if you weren't going to present an argument you believe here it is also time consuming to support your own views using critical thinking and valid evidence. Trying to justify it to others is a mechanism that can force you to justify, rationally, the belief for yourself.

Which is the main reason I still post here.

I agree, debating or discussing issues on chat forums is a great way to learn, I have done much more research and understand issues so much better than I did before I started sharing about Politics on a chat forum. It takes time but I find it's worth it.

 

[Joecool]

You think Mayo's NPD description matches Obama? Troubled relationships? Financial problems? Lack of empathy? Vulnerable to the slightest criticism? Deep need for excessive admiration? I'm not seeing that. I don't see it with Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, or Reagan, either. Nixon was before my time.

Politicians are not limited to POTUS or those who are former POTUS.

 

[Fudbucker]

Politicians are not limited to POTUS or those who are former POTUS.

I mentioned POTUS's because everyone is familiar with them and, by virtue of the position, we get extraordinary amounts of data on their behavior. I don't doubt there are narcissistic politicians all over the place, if that was your point, but if it was, it's a point that's trivially true. But to have a narcissist as a President is quite a different thing. Going back 100 years, I can only think of one other, and that's iffy: Nixon.

ETA: And to have a narcissist as President in the nuclear age is very concerning. I don't think Trump can launch a senseless nuclear attack (I think Mattis and everyone down the line would oppose it), but I'm not 100% sure about that, and it alarms me, because I'm sure that Trump is capable of ordering such an attack.

 

[LSSBB]

Actually, as a conservative, it was Trump's economic approach that was the kicker for me to leave the Republican Party. I'm afraid his approach could lead to real long term damage to the economy.

Still not joining the Democrats though.

 

[xjx388]

I mentioned POTUS's because everyone is familiar with them and, by virtue of the position, we get extraordinary amounts of data on their behavior. I don't doubt there are narcissistic politicians all over the place, if that was your point, but if it was, it's a point that's trivially true. But to have a narcissist as a President is quite a different thing. Going back 100 years, I can only think of one other, and that's iffy: Nixon.

ETA: And to have a narcissist as President in the nuclear age is very concerning. I don't think Trump can launch a senseless nuclear attack (I think Mattis and everyone down the line would oppose it), but I'm not 100% sure about that, and it alarms me, because I'm sure that Trump is capable of ordering such an attack.

Begging the question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fudbucker]

Begging the question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you still questioning whether Trump has NPD? Good lord.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Are you still questioning whether Trump has NPD? Good lord.

He denies that there is any way for you to know that. Not quite the same thing, but I assume it makes it easier to rationalize having voted for such an obviously abnormal person.

 

[ahhell]

Actually, as a conservative, it was Trump's economic approach that was the kicker for me to leave the Republican Party. I'm afraid his approach could lead to real long term damage to the economy.

Still not joining the Democrats though.

But not his flirting with racists? Interesting.

Anyrate, I agree, he's not a conservative and the GOP has lost any pretense at being anything but a tribe at this point. I've been listening to a bunch of conservative podcast since he got the nomination, its pretty interesting to listen to the few that hold on to conservatism over loyalty. They like a lot of what trump is doing domestically, judges and rolling back the regulatory state but find everything else about him repugnant.

One of them had a great line regarding Trumps dealing with NATO. "As usually, he's down the street and around the corner from a valid point."

 

[LSSBB]

But not his flirting with racists? Interesting.

Anyrate, I agree, he's not a conservative and the GOP has lost any pretense at being anything but a tribe at this point. I've been listening to a bunch of conservative podcast since he got the nomination, its pretty interesting to listen to the few that hold on to conservatism over loyalty. They like a lot of what trump is doing domestically, judges and rolling back the regulatory state but find everything else about him repugnant.

One of them had a great line regarding Trumps dealing with NATO. "As usually, he's down the street and around the corner from a valid point."

His flirting with racists was why I already did not like candidate Trump, among other things. When the party betrayed any principles it had with regards to economics, by throwing its weight behind Trump, I left the party - it had totally deserted anything attracting me to it at that point.

If you are implying I am racist, you are wrong

If you are saying I associate at times with racists, well I have racist relatives, have had racist coworkers, and have very probably bought and sold things from and to racists. If the opportunity permits, I make my views known with such folks. If I believe I can influence them to be more non-racist, I will make an effort to do so.