Trump immigrant family separation policy

plague311 said:
I don't see any issue with it. They're doing terrible things because they're told to. Why isn't that comparable? Individuals should be held accountable for their actions, in every case.
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Rank-and-file border agents are not all heartless bastards. Observe that some obviously didn't follow the mandate to separate families. Border agents also save hundreds of people a year from terrible, terrible deaths in 110-degree-plus heat. People turn themselves in. In some cases people's brains are literally cooking. Some of the agents are themselves Latinos. They do see illegal immigrants as people with rights.

They are not all jerks deliberately kicking over water jugs left in the desert at strategic places. But those exist too.
 
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the worst thing is that this entire immigration horror is a silly sideshow to the real threats to US prosperity and security. It is distraction, pure and simple, and it works better the more people are hurt by it.
 
Minoosh said:
They are not all jerks deliberately kicking over water jugs left in the desert at strategic places. But those exist too.
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When people join ICE, they are not sending their best

seriously, the amount of screening and training that ICE candidates undergo is pathetic, and has been since Bush. And how can it be different, if you need to massively increase the number of personnel in a short amount of time - time and again?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
the worst thing is that this entire immigration horror is a silly sideshow to the real threats to US prosperity and security. It is distraction, pure and simple, and it works better the more people are hurt by it.
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Up to a point. Quite a few Republicans were also appalled by the family separations. Plus, there is now some public opinion rooting for people who obviously believe in America. The people waiting in line on the Matamoros bridge are almost by definition not gangsters, who are in the more lucrative business of getting literally tons of drugs across the border.

"They're bringing drugs." :rolleyes: Yeah they are. To sell to Americans. Those aren't the people camped on bridges. They have boats and planes and tunnels and catapults. A decoy load of immigrants may be a strategy for drawing heat off the drug runners.
 
Debbie Wasserman-Schultz made a good point with Chris Cuomo tonight that what Waters was doing was civil disobedience and you cannot compare that with Trump's immigrant policies.

Cuomo didn't get it and kept going on with the false equivalence, the typical news media has to look fair. The left has to be as bad as the right because that is the news model and the model for people who don't recognize how far out of whack Trump is.

He made up for it calling Santorum out on his never calling out Trump's policies or Trump's encouragement of violence. He rolled his eyes when Santorum brought up the "artistic talent" of the baker made that discrimination OK BS.

Jennifer Granholm had a good point however, that Waters calling for people to protest against Trump and his Trumpers gives Trump what he wants.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
When people join ICE, they are not sending their best

seriously, the amount of screening and training that ICE candidates undergo is pathetic, and has been since Bush. And how can it be different, if you need to massively increase the number of personnel in a short amount of time - time and again?
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The screening was very intensive when I joined what was then INS. I don't think it's changed much. There's was a single interview, a panel interview, psych screening, polygraph, and you had to pass FLETC for academics, law and physical training (being sprayed with pepper spray sucks). The fact that the screening is so rigorous, the training is tough and you have to live in remote areas of the Southern Land Border makes it hard to fill positions. There just aren't that many people who want to live in these places, will work for that pay and can pass selection process. When I say work for that pay, the money is rather good...because of overtime. I was on the NLB and I would work three doubles a week. That is, come to work at 0800 and leave at 2300 or 0001 hrs or come in at 1600 and work until 0700 or 0800 three times a week.


It's hard to have a life with your spouse when you have Wednesday and Thursday off and you're on swings or mids that month. When I did it, I lived in Bellingham Washington, a small city with a nightlife, restaurant scene and close to Seattle for day trips. Now, imagine doing it in Calexico, CA; Eagle Pass, TX or Laredo, TX. This is why it's a foot in the door job. Everyone who can move into the interior to work air and sea ports does. Everyone who can find an easier way to make a living in the federal government does. The leadership of CBP on the SLB is made up of people who can't get jobs anywhere else.
 
I think you are out of touch, Craig.
ICE has a massive lists of scandals, including abuse, killings and drug trafficking by poorly screened and supervised members.
 
Good *********** lord!


There is some serious moral rot coming to light here.

And now they live and wait in unfamiliar places: big American suburban houses where no one speaks their language; a locked shelter on a dusty road where they spend little time outside; a converted Walmart where each morning they are required to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, in English, to the country that holds them apart from their parents.
Why must they say those words, some of the children ask at the shelter in Brownsville, on the Mexican border in Texas?

“We tell them, ‘It’s out of respect,’ ” said one employee of the facility, known as Casa Padre, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of losing their job.
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Minoosh said:
Rank-and-file border agents are not all heartless bastards. Observe that some obviously didn't follow the mandate to separate families. Border agents also save hundreds of people a year from terrible, terrible deaths in 110-degree-plus heat. People turn themselves in. In some cases people's brains are literally cooking. Some of the agents are themselves Latinos. They do see illegal immigrants as people with rights.

They are not all jerks deliberately kicking over water jugs left in the desert at strategic places. But those exist too.
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Ok, all of this has been said before. I'm not implying that every single agent is a piece of ****. I'm saying that the main argument to defend Nazis is, "They were just doing their job. Doing what they were told." Which is literally exactly what is being said here, by you.

I'm sure they do save people, that's awesome. I'm sure some have refrained from doing terrible things. How do you want me to clarify that? If we don't know their names or they don't step forward then how the hell do we know they aren't part of the problem? Isn't there a phrase about how the biggest danger is good people doing nothing in the face of terrible things? If these people don't condemn these actions or they take part in it then they are the problem. I'm not into making excuses for people watching this happen and not speaking out about it. Ymmv

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plague311 said:
Ok, all of this has been said before. I'm not implying that every single agent is a piece of ****. I'm saying that the main argument to defend Nazis is, "They were just doing their job. Doing what they were told." Which is literally exactly what is being said here, by you.
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I don't think that's what I'm saying. My point is that there are humanitarians in the mix; not all are on board. Quite a few of them.

plague311 said:
I'm sure they do save people, that's awesome. I'm sure some have refrained from doing terrible things. How do you want me to clarify that? If we don't know their names or they don't step forward then how the hell do we know they aren't part of the problem?
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Doxing would backfire IMO. There's a risk in going the public shaming route. Yes, civil rights violations will happen but there really are people keeping an eye out for this. Painting all agents with the same broad brush could be counterproductive. That's why I mention the positive tactics should be publicly acknowledged. I don't want to burn people who are trying to do the right thing. They were just following orders is emphatically not the route I want to go.
 
I did some research in the '80s that indicated a person's chance of getting political asylum was aligned with whether the U.S. was hostile or friendly to certain Latin American countries. IOW a Nicaraguan refugee fleeing Marxism had a much better chance than, say, a Salvadoran, where there was U.S. support for death squads etc.

I'm wondering what will happen when Venezuelans start washing up on our shores, because that is considered a hostile regime.

It's already automatic for a Cuban to land on U.S. soil and immediately become legal.
 
If we don't know their names or they don't step forward then how the hell do we know they aren't part of the problem?
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We don't. But demonizing them as a group can backfire. Bad idea IMO. Squander emerging goodwill toward immigrants that does happen when human beings get a closeup look at each other. Maybe it sounds like I'm just repeating myself, I don't know, but IMO it's very important to build on the humanitarian gestures. In my experience Border Patrol agents aren't all *******. I don't want to demonize them any more than I want to see the border crossers demonized. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sauce for the goose etc. I want to generate light not heat. Lots of cliches I know but it's very heartfelt and based on the good that I have seen from immigration enforcement over the years.

ETA: They're not all Nazis. They're just not. As a group yes, I would default to treating them with understanding - not enabling them, but refraining from the slapping labels on them and "outing" them maliciously.
 
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Ok, on that we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have nothing to add but I feel your view on it is a bit naive. Without that sounding as rude as possible.

I get you want to stay positive but there is nothing, I repeat nothing, good about what they're doing to these people. If you continue to work for an organization that treats people, especially children, the way they are then you have to own your responsibility in that circumstance.

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Minoosh said:
We don't. But demonizing them as a group can backfire. Bad idea IMO. Squander emerging goodwill toward immigrants that does happen when human beings get a closeup look at each other. Maybe it sounds like I'm just repeating myself, I don't know, but IMO it's very important to build on the humanitarian gestures. In my experience Border Patrol agents aren't all *******. I don't want to demonize them any more than I want to see the border crossers demonized. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sauce for the goose etc. I want to generate light not heat. Lots of cliches I know but it's very heartfelt and based on the good that I have seen from immigration enforcement over the years.
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Have to agree here. W. Kamau Bell highlighted this in his CNN series - there were people with Border Control that were responsible for identifying corpses found in the desert and attempting to notify next of kin, and simply wanted to let people know "what happened to my child/parent/sibling/etc.?" There were also border control agents that delighted in dumping out water that people had left to help people survive the crossing.

Best to identify which is which, if you're going to protest anyone. As I said, the rank and file don't necessarily love the elected or appointed people at the top.

(Also, don't leave animal corpses like some kind of pet cat. Yuck.)
 
Stacko said:
Good *********** lord!


There is some serious moral rot coming to light here.
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But all this talk of Authoritarisim is just Liberal Propaganda and Trump Derangment Syndrome..of so say all the "reasonable" GOP supporters here....

I have had it with them, Anybody supporting Trump will be, as far as I am concerned, a supporter of dictorial rule and and an enemy of democracy in the US.
 
I heard the Occupy Numbnuts shut down the Immigration Courts in New York... which delayed the processing of both legal and illegal immigrants... extended detention times... cut off their own noses.... shot themselves in foot.

I have had it with them, Anybody supporting Occupy will be, as far as I am concerned, a supporter of anarchy an enemy of democracy in the US.
 
The Big Dog said:
Legislation by harassing governmental LEO's.

Again, great strategy.
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This isn't about a political difference. This is about a policy to build concentration camps for children. If you're party to that, only the meager limitations of the law apply to you. Refusing you service, disrupting your daily life off duty are completely fine.

This policy requires people to carry it out. If people choose not to apply or those doing it move on, Trump can't carry out his policy without putting the core mission of DHS at risk. DHS already can't fill all its positions on the SLB and cant retain the people they have.
 
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The Big Dog said:
I heard the Occupy Numbnuts shut down the Immigration Courts in New York... which delayed the processing of both legal and illegal immigrants... extended detention times... cut off their own noses.... shot themselves in foot.

I have had it with them, Anybody supporting Occupy will be, as far as I am concerned, a supporter of anarchy an enemy of democracy in the US.
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Did they actually do that? Link?
 
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