Karelia: Russian, Finnish, or should it declare independence?

[Vixen]

Karelia, situated to the east of Finland and to the North West of Russia, has at various times been fought over by the Swedes, the Finns and the Russians.

The Karelian Isthmus, in particular has been torn between east and west. Vyborg (Viipuri) was once Finland's richest town, and Sweden's second richest.

Now that the USSR is no more, is it time for Karelia to declare independence, as did Estonia and Latvia et al not long after the Russian Revolution of 1917.

The Finnish-speaking peoples were forced to leave after the Continuation War of 1941-1944, after a three-year occupation by Finland and the collapse of the German war effort in Stalingrad, and then Leningrad and everywhere else, like dominoes.

The USSR being the victors with the Allied Forces got to demand all sorts of conditions such as a more restricted border from Finland. For example, the Petsamo corridor in the north east, now cut off Finland from access to the Arctic Sea.

Karelia has been repopulated with 650K ethnic Russians. However, the Karelian land area is vast (172 sq km) and most of it lies wasted, swamps, forests, no roads, no electricity, no water. It could be redeveloped for about €30b.

In this age of over-population is this now a good idea?

 

[Vixen]

The discussion was about whether you wanted Finland to get the Karelian Isthmus back. Then you cite numbers and a city which are located in East Karelia, which never was Finnish to begin with. Your claim about Finnish speaking peoples being rudely ejected is also unfounded.

Oh, and Petrozadovsk was founded on behest of Peter the Great:

The name of the earlier settlement, Solomennoje, sounds distinctly Russian as well.

ETA: so yes, it does mean you are an irredentist and share at least one important political goal with the Nazis. It helps to explain why you're so eager to whitewash the IKL. Fascists and Nazis mostly don't like it when you call them out on it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12337266#post12337266

Karelia is separated into various regions. There is South Karelia and North Karelia. Part of it is in Finland, the bulk of it in Russia.

We were talking about the Karelian Isthmus, which was in Swedish-Finnish possession. The Swede-Finns built the castle at Vyborg, its then capital.

Thus when talking of Karelia and the Russian population, of course it needs to be explained where the majority of this population lives.

Nothing to do with fascism. The Welsh, Scots, Irish and English all love their country without being paid up Nazis.


I'm a dentist? There's more to me than meets the eye!

 

[Vixen]

Why then the desire to conquer other countries' lands?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12337271#post12337271

What are you on about? It is no different from the Southern Irish wanting back Northern Ireland, the Catalonians, or the Basques.

 

[ddt]

We were talking about the Karelian Isthmus, which was in Swedish-Finnish possession. The Swede-Finns built the castle at Vyborg, its then capital.

Indeed, we were talking about the Isthmus, which lies between the Finnish Gulf and Lake Ladoga. Then you brought in Petrozavodsk, which lies on the shore of Lake Onega to the East.

Nothing to do with fascism. The Welsh, Scots, Irish and English all love their country without being paid up Nazis.

I'm a dentist? There's more to me than meets the eye!

I knew you couldn't read, but I'll try nevertheless. IRREDENTIST. And that has a high correlation with fascism.

 

[Craig4]

In this age of over-population is this now a good idea?

Uh....which country in the region has an over-population problem?

 

[MikeG]

Declare independence from Russia? Good luck with that.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Besides, it was Russia, or maybe Sweden that brought civilization to that area, it was only populated by uneducated peasants beforehand, and those do not count. So clearly it should remain Russian as Sweden no longer shares a border.

 

[erwinl]

Besides, it was Russia, or maybe Sweden that brought civilization to that area, it was only populated by uneducated peasants beforehand, and those do not count. So clearly it should remain Russian as Sweden no longer shares a border.

We can fix that by giving Karelia to Russia and Finland to Sweden.
Everybody back to the place where they belong!

For as Vixen has already admitted. It is Sweden who has a claim on Finland and possibly, should they so desire, on Karelia.

 

[MikeG]

We've obviously got to create some Neanderthals with some clever genetic work and hand everything back to them.

 

[Craig4]

We can fix that by giving Karelia to Russia and Finland to Sweden.
Everybody back to the place where they belong!

For as Vixen has already admitted. It is Sweden who has a claim on Finland and possibly, should they so desire, on Karelia.

Not that I've known many Swedes in my life but they don't seem all that nationalistic. It's a bit hard to imagine they really want Finland or anywhere else not currently in their borders.

 

[ddt]

We can fix that by giving Karelia to Russia and Finland to Sweden.
Everybody back to the place where they belong!

For as Vixen has already admitted. It is Sweden who has a claim on Finland and possibly, should they so desire, on Karelia.

I agree. I propose we organize a conference in The Hague (where else?) where Russia and Sweden can partition Finland.

As preparation, we can review what led the League of Nations to decide to award the Åland Islands to Finland against the express wishes of its population.

 

[Cleon]

It seems like the only fair way to compensate those wronged Swedish nobles.

 

[ddt]

It seems like the only fair way to compensate those wronged Swedish nobles.

It was such an hell for them that some even emigrated to the Netherlands!

 

[Vixen]

Besides, it was Russia, or maybe Sweden that brought civilization to that area, it was only populated by uneducated peasants beforehand, and those do not count. So clearly it should remain Russian as Sweden no longer shares a border.

Uneducated Finnish speaking and cultured peasants. Not peasants, actually as Sweden and Finland never had feudalism.

 

[Vixen]

We can fix that by giving Karelia to Russia and Finland to Sweden.
Everybody back to the place where they belong!

For as Vixen has already admitted. It is Sweden who has a claim on Finland and possibly, should they so desire, on Karelia.

Wash your mouth out!

 

[Vixen]

I agree. I propose we organize a conference in The Hague (where else?) where Russia and Sweden can partition Finland.

As preparation, we can review what led the League of Nations to decide to award the Åland Islands to Finland against the express wishes of its population.

Finland got the Åland Islands because geographically it is part of the Finnish archipelago.

You'll find geographically, the Karelian Isthmus and the so-called Petsamo corridor at Salla and Elvnes is also geographically a part of Finland, just as Scandinavia lies on the scandinavian belt.

the Åland Islands are in fact a continuous archipelago that joins it with Finland, and furthermore, that deep sea waters separate them from Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Åland_Islands_dispute

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Uneducated Finnish speaking and cultured peasants. Not peasants, actually as Sweden and Finland never had feudalism.

Irrelevant according to you in your other threads. Or is it only irrelevant if it fits your narrative?

 

[Vixen]

Irrelevant according to you in your other threads. Or is it only irrelevant if it fits your narrative?

I didn't say it was irrelevant.

 

[ddt]

Uneducated Finnish speaking and cultured peasants.

So they're (honorary) Aryans and deserve to rule, contrary to, say, Estonian peasants?

Not peasants, actually as Sweden and Finland never had feudalism.

"peasant" is the designation of an occupation, and has nothing to do with feudalism or serfdom.

 

[Mojo]

What are you on about? It is no different from the Southern Irish wanting back Northern Ireland, the Catalonians, or the Basques.

The southern Irish want the Catalonians and the Basques back?