Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

[TubbaBlubba]

Would that be the King Carl Gustav whose royal house was founded by Private Jean Bernadotte of the Regiment Royal-La Marine, the son of a provincial lawyer and himself a common French infantryman?

Dave

Yes, but he also paid our public debt.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, it's a damn shame most of those youth summer camps disappeared.

You can sneer as much as you like, but the Karelian Isthmus was in the possession of the Swedish Empire, which included the Finns.

There were many fallen soldiers on the Karelian Isthmus and around Ladoga in the 1940's war. On behalf of their fatherland.

Another forgotten land.

 

[Vixen]

Would that be the King Carl Gustav whose royal house was founded by Private Jean Bernadotte of the Regiment Royal-La Marine, the son of a provincial lawyer and himself a common French infantryman?

Dave

Exactly. The Queen, is there by default, and in addition, William and Mary were wheeled in from the Netherlands to keep out the Stuarts.

 

[ddt]

Exactly. The Queen, is there by default, and in addition, William and Mary were wheeled in from the Netherlands to keep out the Stuarts.

Mary was a daughter of James II / VII (*) and thus a Stuart. The reason Parliament asked William to invade England (with 20,000 Dutch troops) was that James had secretly converted to Catholicism. If Anne hadn't died childless, and William had preferred Mary's company over that of Bentinck, there still would have been Stuarts on the English/British throne.

(*) VII in Scotland, in case Craig still follows this thread

 

[ddt]

OK so you and TubbaBubba think it's hilarious some African guy regaled himself in a ridiculous crown and ermine robes and called himself King.

He never called himself King. He called himself Emperor. And yes, it's hilarious, including that his crowning ceremony was a copy of that of Napoleon.

But what do you think Queen Elizabeth and King Carl Gustav of Sweden (10th cousin) have done?

I'm sure they've nicely dispensed of their task of being a figurehead of state (*), doing all the representative tasks that are required of them. I think it's inhumane that Brenda has to wear such a heavy crown, not only during coronation but also during the Queen's speech. It's cool that she gave lessons in driving to a couple of Saudi princes when they visited Balmoral.

(*) yes, Eliizabeth has still some reserve powers but Carl Gustav not even that.

 

[ddt]

You can sneer as much as you like, but the Karelian Isthmus was in the possession of the Swedish Empire, which included the Finns.

There were many fallen soldiers on the Karelian Isthmus and around Ladoga in the 1940's war. On behalf of their fatherland.

Another forgotten land.

If you want a serious discussion, fine; but you evaded that.

You claimed you wanted Karelia (i.e., the Isthmus) returned to Finland. You were asked what for, and you ducked that question.

 

[Vixen]

If you want a serious discussion, fine; but you evaded that.

You claimed you wanted Karelia (i.e., the Isthmus) returned to Finland. You were asked what for, and you ducked that question.

As a matter of principle.

It has been neglected all these many years, with vast areas of swamps and forest. No electricity, no roads, no water. 650K ethnic Russians.

But hey, with overpopulation in the world, €30b could be invested to make it habitable once again.

Vyborg (Viipuri) was once the second richest town in the Swedish empire, being as it is on the trading post between east and west and the road to St Petersburg. Now it is little more than a tourist town.

I really would like to visit the part of Karelia where some of my family fought so fiercely and died.

 

[Cleon]

As a matter of principle.

It has been neglected all these many years, with vast areas of swamps and forest. No electricity, no roads, no water. 650K ethnic Russians.

I see plenty of evidence of electricity, roads, and water.

Also ethnic Russians. You do have that correct, at least.

 

[Pope130]

. 650K ethnic Russians.

But hey, with overpopulation in the world, €30b could be invested to make it habitable once again.

Could you expand on this a bit? I don't understand how an area with 650,000 residents could be considered uninhabitable.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Could you expand on this a bit? I don't understand how an area with 650,000 residents could be considered uninhabitable.

I'm not sure Vixen considers ethnic Russians human.

 

[ddt]

I really would like to visit the part of Karelia

There are agencies that gladly assist you in getting a visa for Russia.

 

[Vixen]

Could you expand on this a bit? I don't understand how an area with 650,000 residents could be considered uninhabitable.

It is vast. It is 172.4 sq km (cf Netherlands: 41.5 sq km).

The only large city - where the 650K live - is at Petrozavodsk (Petroskoi).

 

[ddt]

Could you expand on this a bit? I don't understand how an area with 650,000 residents could be considered uninhabitable.

That's a good point. According to wiki:

However, since World War II the entire isthmus has been divided between the city of Saint Petersburg (mostly Kurortny District), as well as Priozersky District, Vsevolozhsky District and Vyborgsky District of Leningrad Oblast.

Kurortny District has a population density of 263 inhabitants per km², using 2010 census data.
Leningrad Oblast (for simplicity, let's take the whole oblast), 20 inh./km².

By contrast, Finland only has 16 inh./km². I guess that means that Finland is also inhabitable.

 

[ddt]

It is vast. It is 172.4 sq km (cf Netherlands: 41.5 sq km).

The only large city - where the 650K live - is at Petrozavodsk (Petroskoi).

Petrozavodsk does not lie on the Isthmus and never was Finnish. Except then when Finland occupied it during the Continuation War 1941-1944 in its pursuit of a Greater Finland. So you not only want the territory back that Finland lost during the Winter War, you also want more Lebensraum.

 

[Vixen]

That's a good point. According to wiki:


Kurortny District has a population density of 263 inhabitants per km², using 2010 census data.
Leningrad Oblast (for simplicity, let's take the whole oblast), 20 inh./km².

By contrast, Finland only has 16 inh./km². I guess that means that Finland is also inhabitable.

Finland is covered in 100,000 lakes.

Islington has 13,875 people per square kilometre, for perspective.

 

[Vixen]

Petrozavodsk does not lie on the Isthmus and never was Finnish. Except then when Finland occupied it during the Continuation War 1941-1944 in its pursuit of a Greater Finland. So you not only want the territory back that Finland lost during the Winter War, you also want more Lebensraum.

But it is the capital of the Russian Republic of Karelia.

Nothing to do with Lebensraum or the Nazis. There were whole communities of Finnish-speaking peoples there already, before they were rudely ejected. Not dissimilar to what happened to the Baltic Germans.

 

[ddt]

Finland is covered in 100,000 lakes.

Those lakes only cover 10% of the area, per wiki. That would make the population density 11% higher, or 18 inh/km². That's still less than the numbers for the Karelian Isthmus.

Oh, and for perspective, of the area of the Netherlands you cited, 18% is surface water.

Islington has 13,875 people per square kilometre, for perspective.

And then? That doesn't take away from the fact that the population density of Finland is smaller than that of the Isthmus.

 

[Vixen]

Those lakes only cover 10% of the area, per wiki. That would make the population density 11% higher, or 18 inh/km². That's still less than the numbers for the Karelian Isthmus.

Oh, and for perspective, of the area of the Netherlands you cited, 18% is surface water.

And then? That doesn't take away from the fact that the population density of Finland is smaller than that of the Isthmus.

One-third is above the Arctic Circle, a beautiful, but barren wilderness.

Like Estonia and the ancient realms Uguania, Livonia, Lettland, Wenda, et al there is ample room for everybody, as there are lots of forests which could easily be cleared.

 

[ddt]

But it is the capital of the Russian Republic of Karelia.

Nothing to do with Lebensraum or the Nazis. There were whole communities of Finnish-speaking peoples there already, before they were rudely ejected. Not dissimilar to what happened to the Baltic Germans.

The discussion was about whether you wanted Finland to get the Karelian Isthmus back. Then you cite numbers and a city which are located in East Karelia, which never was Finnish to begin with. Your claim about Finnish speaking peoples being rudely ejected is also unfounded.

Oh, and Petrozadovsk was founded on behest of Peter the Great:

Within the city limits, the district of Solomennoje appears in surviving records dating back to the sixteenth century, and a map produced by the Flemish cartographer Abraham Ortelius at the end of that century places a settlement here called Onegaborg on the site of modern Petrozavodsk.[13]

On September 11, 1703, Prince Menshikov founded the settlement of Petrovskaya Sloboda ("Petrine Sloboda"). He did so at the behest of Tsar Peter the Great, who needed a new iron foundry to manufacture cannons and anchors for the Baltic Fleet at the time of the Great Northern War (1700–1721).

The name of the earlier settlement, Solomennoje, sounds distinctly Russian as well.

ETA: so yes, it does mean you are an irredentist and share at least one important political goal with the Nazis. It helps to explain why you're so eager to whitewash the IKL. Fascists and Nazis mostly don't like it when you call them out on it.

 

[ddt]

One-third is above the Arctic Circle, a beautiful, but barren wilderness.

Like Estonia and the ancient realms Uguania, Livonia, Lettland, Wenda, et al there is ample room for everybody, as there are lots of forests which could easily be cleared.

Why then the desire to conquer other countries' lands?