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Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

That's a proverb going back to Ovid, "exitus acta probat". It's somewhat erromeously attributed to Machiavelli (whom I believe Stalin read). Machiavelli said in The Prince that when evaluating a prince's actions, no higher authority exists, and therefore "si guarda al fine", "one must consider the result".

Machiavelli actually used a closer paraphrase in 'Livy', "Though the act condemn the doer ... when the end is good, the act may be excused", though this is in a very specific context (viz., establishing a constitution).

I have read a couple of different translations of The Prince. The first one I read agrees with you and sates that "The ends justifies the means" is a lazy translation. It also points out that translating renaissance era Italian political jargon is not a straight forward task.

The other one I read just gives the lazy translation.
 
It is rather strange that history doesn't seem to go back much beyond 7K-8K years ago (the ancient Egyptians and Chinese) and yet humans have roamed the earth for at least 250m years, according to the archaeologists (from carbon dating).

Literally everything in this sentence is factually incorrect.

1. Writing developed about 3000 bce, so about 5000 years ago. History didn't develop before then because, well, no writing = no history.
2. Australopithecines, the earliest bipedal hominid that we know of, go back about 3.5 million - 5 million years ago. 250 million years ago is dinosaur territory.
3. Carbon dating is useless beyond a couple tens of thousands of years.
 
The people's of 7K+ years ago were literally illiterate.
We have no evidence of writing prior to about 5.5k years ago.
:thumbsup:
Damn, I missed that one.

Tip for Vixen: look up the meaning of words before you use them.

And - as DDT has so eloquently mentioned - Most of your data is from a long time after so isn't relevant.
Thank you for the compliment!

And yes, Vixen's chronology is more messed up than that of Anatoly Fomenko, Herbert Illiig or Albert Delahaye. Each of those at least formed something internally consistent.

Another tip to Vixen: look up the date of each and every historical fact you mention.

I'll henceforth assume every jump through the centuries is deliberate and intentional. After all, you claim yourself to be "informed" and you've done "research" after this and that. And yet you can't even produce correctly the name of the Nazi Party. :rolleyes:
 
Nothing you mention here justifies the crusaders stealing the land from it's owners.

Also, I agree with your comment - the Estonians and Livonians already had land rights...
Can we wager on Vixen's reply to this? (*)

The answers we got thus far varied between:

1) the Germans were the original settlers. IOW, there were no Balts.
2) the Balts were "living like beasts in the field". IOW, they were subhuman and you may subjugate and enslave them like you corral cattle.
3) the Balts worshipped heathen gods like Odin, Perkele and Baba. IOW, the Germans brought the right religion and thus were in the right to enslave them and take away their land.
4) the Balts were only living in tribes. IOW, the Germans brought law and order and it was right and proper to enslave them and take away their land.

Oh, and all those answers are wrong.

I wonder, though, why it wasn't okay for the Dutch settlers of the Cape to take uninhabited land and to bring law and order and the right word of God to the unwashed negroes living there?

(*) I know we can't. Some of us, including me, did so with another poster years ago and those threads got sent to Deep Storage.
 
I just wonder what V thinks will happen?
What is the goal?

Is she expecting the descendants of those who left in 40/44 to go back?
What the hell am I going to do with a farmhouse in Koivisto? I work in IT!

There are those who still remember 1944-46.

There is a Karelian who married into my family. He did well in Finland as a CEO of a hotel chain, and living in a salubrious part of Helsinki. But yet his heart yearns for his childhood home, and he is still bitter about being made to leave. Another dear family friend told me although she left as a child, she still dreams of what she considers home.

The descendants are Finns, so they probably have no great ambition to 'return' one way or another.

People do not realise that losing your home land is like a bereavement.
 
That does not address my post.

Why did you smirk about the names of those Estonian counties? Did you really not know that Estonian and Finnish are related languages?

Why did you make that remark about large forests?

And why did you again jump through centuries to try make a failed point? For someone who calls themselves "informed", you really make a hash of history.

The Baltic Germans likely never displaced anyone. They probably cleared swathes of forest, on which to build their estates.
 
It is rather strange that history doesn't seem to go back much beyond 7K-8K years ago (the ancient Egyptians and Chinese) and yet humans have roamed the earth for at least 250m years, according to the archaeologists (from carbon dating). So I do often wonder, what happened to all these ancient peoples. They obviously can't all have been completely illiterate, and when you consider how tiny the earth's population used to be even 1,000 years ago, one has to wonder, what happened to all these people. What happened to the Neanderthals. Well, we know in their case, they either became extinct or they were genocided.

The other day another poster said we have no idea who the people populating Ireland and Scotland were as we have no records and the 'picts' are a fanciful myth. Isn't that odd? No records beyond circa AD900, and for most people, the Vikings represent something ancient an exotic, yet, hello? they only go back to AD900 for pete's sake.
I never said anything of the sort. I said that the genealogies of Pictish and Gaelic kings were largely fictional, or at all events weren't historically verifiable. Picts and Gaels are not, however, mythical, and I have never said they were.

Now it's my turn to correct you. Modern humans have not roamed the earth for 250 millions of years, but for somewhat less than a thousandth of that time. 250 million years ago our ancestors were reptiles.

For much or most of their existence, modern humans - the ones like the people who live now - were confined to sub Saharan Africa, and didn't roam the rest of the earth. They had no written languages, and didn't practice agriculture until much more recently.

Please also note, from Radiocarbon datingWP
... the oldest dates that can be reliably measured by this process date to around 50,000 years ago, although special preparation methods occasionally permit accurate analysis of older samples​
 
I never said anything of the sort. I said that the genealogies of Pictish and Gaelic kings were largely fictional, or at all events weren't historically verifiable. Picts and Gaels are not, however, mythical, and I have never said they were.

Now it's my turn to correct you. Modern humans have not roamed the earth for 250 millions of years, but for somewhat less than a thousandth of that time. 250 million years ago our ancestors were reptiles.

For much or most of their existence, modern humans - the ones like the people who live now - were confined to sub Saharan Africa, and didn't roam the rest of the earth. They had no written languages, and didn't practice agriculture until much more recently.

Please also note, from Radiocarbon datingWP
... the oldest dates that can be reliably measured by this process date to around 50,000 years ago, although special preparation methods occasionally permit accurate analysis of older samples​

I see my error. That should read 250K, not 250m.

When I point out to fanatical Darwinists that radio carbon dating only goes back 40K years with any accuracy, I am in the wrong. If I mention a 250K human history on earth, I am wrong again. <Shrug>.
 
So you are saying that the people who introduced reading and writing were culturally advanced and more civilised than the illiterate masses...?

No, he's saying you got your dates wrong.

And really. Were the Gauls more civilized than the Inca? How would you even measure that?
 
I see my error. That should read 250K, not 250m.

When I point out to fanatical Darwinists that radio carbon dating only goes back 40K years with any accuracy, I am in the wrong. If I mention a 250K human history on earth, I am wrong again. <Shrug>.
What point are you trying to make to "fanatical Darwinists" in arguing that radio carbon dating only gives accurate figures for a few tens of millennia? Do they respond to you by correctly stating that there are other procedures which can date things back to the beginning of the solar system?

But yes you are frequently in the wrong, and dismissive shrugs will not make you more correct, I am afraid. The fact that the earliest modern human remains are too remote in time to be dated by radioactive carbon ... why is that a problem for Darwinists, whether fanatical or otherwise?
 
I see my error. That should read 250K, not 250m.

When I point out to fanatical Darwinists that radio carbon dating only goes back 40K years with any accuracy, I am in the wrong. If I mention a 250K human history on earth, I am wrong again. <Shrug>.
Accepting, for the moment, that that "m" instead of "k" was indeed a typo, and that you're being truthful in knowing that radiocarbon dating goes back only a few tens of thousands of years, why did you claim that the age of mankind (i.e., of homo sapiens sapiens) had been established by radiocarbon dating?

The bigger issue, though, is that you completely ignore the issue that you misrepresented Craig's post about Pictish royal lineages, an issue that Craig and earlier me raised. I think you owe him an apology for that.
 
So you are saying that the people who introduced reading and writing were culturally advanced and more civilised than the illiterate masses...?
No, Tolls his saying that you should consult a dictionary on the meaning of the word "illiterate".
 
There are those who still remember 1944-46.

There is a Karelian who married into my family. He did well in Finland as a CEO of a hotel chain, and living in a salubrious part of Helsinki. But yet his heart yearns for his childhood home, and he is still bitter about being made to leave. Another dear family friend told me although she left as a child, she still dreams of what she considers home.

The descendants are Finns, so they probably have no great ambition to 'return' one way or another.

People do not realise that losing your home land is like a bereavement.
Cool story.

And I want a pony.
 
For the Tsar, I agree. The cold blooded murder of his whole family, though...is another story. I think that is where a lot of people..including me..condemn the Bolsheviks.


Alexandra IMHO was just as culpable. The "kids" - well, the two youngest were minors. The three oldest were the same age as the kids who were sent off to die in the trenches, i.e., young adults. Their mother - again IMHO - infantalized them, but they were not children. IIRC, early on in the revolution Alexandra and her children were offered the chance to leave Russia, but declined.
 
It is rather strange that history doesn't seem to go back much beyond 7K-8K years ago (the ancient Egyptians and Chinese) and yet humans have roamed the earth for at least 250m years, according to the archaeologists (from carbon dating).So I do often wonder, what happened to all these ancient peoples. They obviously can't all have been completely illiterate, and when you consider how tiny the earth's population used to be even 1,000 years ago, one has to wonder, what happened to all these people.

The US southwest and west has an abundance of pre-Columbian pictoglyphs in the desert areas - it seems the people who lived there hundreds of years ago wanted to make their marks.


AFAIK the Native Americans lived as nomadic tribes.
It varied. There were large settlements in places like Cahokia along the Mississippi, and even in post-contact times peoples such as the Iroquois, the Cherokee, and Choctaw had good-sized towns, as did many Southwestern tribes.

The early settler suffered regular raids by the Native Americans and they fought back with guns. It all got very bloody. However, apart from the tribes of Native Americans, North America wasn't 'settled' per se. I admit it is rather odd that US history only seems to start in 1624.
In other words, aside from the people who lived there nobody lived there. Or at least nobody important, i.e., European.

Even if one defines "history" as "what's been recorded", US history does go back further then that, back to the Spanish settlements in Florida (and if you count Puerto Rico, even earlier). There's a building in Santa Fe, New Mexico, that's been used as a government building almost continuously since 1608 (there was this thing called the Pueblo Uprising in the late 1600s).


If you can find a copy where you live, I recommend Charles Mann's book 1491 for a glimpse of current thinking on the pre-contact Americas.
 
There are those who still remember 1944-46.

Precious few now.
The youngest (who really won't remember it) are in their 70s.

There is a Karelian who married into my family. He did well in Finland as a CEO of a hotel chain, and living in a salubrious part of Helsinki. But yet his heart yearns for his childhood home, and he is still bitter about being made to leave. Another dear family friend told me although she left as a child, she still dreams of what she considers home.

The descendants are Finns, so they probably have no great ambition to 'return' one way or another.

People do not realise that losing your home land is like a bereavement.

And so, for the sake of the few who perceive Karelia et al as their home, you would displace a million people for whom it is their home, and has been for several generations.

Sorry...no. That is how to get into a situation where this crap never ends.
 
The other day another poster said we have no idea who the people populating Ireland and Scotland were as we have no records and the 'picts' are a fanciful myth. Isn't that odd? No records beyond circa AD900, and for most people, the Vikings represent something ancient an exotic, yet, hello? they only go back to AD900 for pete's sake.

I believe that what I said was that we have no records other than the oral histories past a certain point and that most of the kings of Ireland and Scotland always traced their ancestry back to a hero of myth or a god.

translation for those who don't wish argue against a strawman - we can't be certain of the ancestry of anyone when there are no records.

Second there are historical records that exist prior to 900 in the British Isles - what we do not have are complete records.

Literacy outside of the clergy was not common and not every petty king was the patron of a monastic settlement who would record all the births and deaths.

So what was happening on earth 1,500 years ago? Was it all destroyed? Or did it never exist, anyway?

The decay of the Western Roman Empire was happening 1,500 years ago. Large scale migrations were happening. Record keeping ending up being prioritized lower than before as the social system became less stable.

Your lack of basic historical knowledge is quire troubling.

We are taught that Columbus and Cook discovered various parts of the world, and Scott the Antarctic, and Hilary was first to achieve Mt Everest, and we swallow all this obvious ********.

Yes, we were taught that - and do you know why?

AFAIK the Native Americans lived as nomadic tribes. From Ancient DNA studies, we know they crossed from Asia over the Bering Strait and into North America. They share the same DNA as Asian people today.

Actually, its more a sharing with the Siberians than with other Asian ethnic groups.

And there were actually quite a few First Nations that lived in permanent settlements with agriculture. We can start with the Iroquois and Hurons, then there were the Ohio River cultures, Anazai, Haida, Tlingit, Nootka, Inca, and the Central American cultures. In fact, the majority of First Nation (population wise) were living in permanent settlements at the time of first contact with Europeans.

By depicting the First Nations as nomadic savages Europeans were able to justify dispossessing them of their lands.

Much like you've done with the Germans bring civilization to the Balts....

When the early settlers arrived in the USA circa 1600's (and the Spanish in the south in the 1400's) they were either religious dissidents who were forced to leave Britain or they were political dissidents, such as the Levellers or supporters of Catholic King Charles II after he was deposed and beheaded. Others were convicts transported to the New World as punishment.

You really are historically ignorant, aren't you?

We'll start with the Spanish settlers. They were neither political or religious dissidents - they were considered to be loyal Spaniards, given that they were part of the new aristocracy supplanting the ruling classes of the first nations that were conquered. This was how the Spanish got people to come over - be a landowner and experience social mobility.

Now the American settlers - given that the first colonies in North America were set up in hopes of finding gold like the Spanish did in Central America the British certainly weren't going to send political dissidents. While colonies such as Virginia and Maryland were notoriously Royalist after the Civil War, they did not get a large influx of Royalist immigrants - simply because it was a long trip by boat - Royalist refugees had a much shorter trip to France if they needed to get out of England.

The Puritans who had come to N. America to practice that unique form of religious freedom known as "We want the freedom to practice our own faith in the way we see fit and to make sure that everyone else can practice their faith in the way that we see fit." About 1/6th of the male population went back to England during the Civil War and a significant portion of them stayed to take advantage of England under Puritan rule.

Those sent to the Americas as punishment didn't get sent to North America - they got sent to the Barbados, Jamaica and Bermuda to work the sugar plantations. Which was quite often a death sentence.
 
No, he's saying you got your dates wrong.

And really. Were the Gauls more civilized than the Inca? How would you even measure that?

Measuring civilization relative to other civilization is challenging. And realistically is dependant on the value of the person doing the evaluating.

Both the Gauls and the Inca had well established population centres, high levels of agriculture, and well developed artistic sensitivities. The Gauls were iron workers, however, that is more due to the ease of getting iron in NW Europe relative to the Andes than to technical ability (given the level of metalwork displayed with gold and silver). Both were non-literate cultures. The Incans did have a higher level of social organization than the Gauls did - as demonstrated by a unified political structure and the system of labour used to develop high altitude agriculture, travel and trade, as compared to the far less cohesive political/social structure of the Gauls.

Realistically, the Incan culture was probably on a higher level than the Gauls.
 

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