Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

[Vixen]

And in how many of those wars did Russia invade Finland? You're referring to a list where at least 90% of the listed items simply do not apply.

Besides that, a war does not automatically mean the ethnic makeup of the place changed.

In quite a few. The churches were ransacked and towns vandalised quite a few times.

 

[ddt]

In quite a few. The churches were ransacked and towns vandalised quite a few times.

When a church is ransacked, the churchgoers magically turn Russian from Finnish?

Please stop this nonsense.

 

[ddt]

The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.

Bump.

If only someone on this thread had a dayjob of crunching numbers (say, an accountant) and would provide the percentage of land the Baltic nobility was allowed to keep after the land reforms of 1918-1920.

 

[dudalb]

And in how many of those wars did Russia invade Finland? You're referring to a list where at least 90% of the listed items simply do not apply.

Besides that, a war does not automatically mean the ethnic makeup of the place changed.

You do seem to have it in for Finland.....

 

[ddt]

You do seem to have it in for Finland.....

No I don't. I'm just countering yet another historical falsification by the OP that the Finns would have been overrun (and displaced) countless times by Slavic hordes. She's been continuously distorting Finnish history, specifically what Finland did during the Continuation War. FTR, I think Finland was fully justified in defending itself and its territorial integrity during the Winter War, that is not up to debate.

 

[Vixen]

Bump.

If only someone on this thread had a dayjob of crunching numbers (say, an accountant) and would provide the percentage of land the Baltic nobility was allowed to keep after the land reforms of 1918-1920.

From wiki:

The reforms expropriated 1065 manors (96.6% of large landowners were affected) of which only 57 manors came from Estonian owners with the rest owned mainly by Baltic Germans along with land from the Russian state and church land. The amount of land in total nationalised came to over 2.34 million hectares of land which accounted for 58% of the total agricultural land in Estonia. Manorial industrial enterprises were also nationalised by the state and sold (this included 225 vodka factories, 344 mills, 74 sawmills, 64 stone and clay industries, 18 dairies and 7 breweries). Overall about 53,000 Estonian settlers received expropriated land with 1.2mn hectares going to the 23,000 individuals affected by the land reform (though just 3.6% of land was given back to the former owner)

So Estonia and Latvia need to recompense the Baltic Germans they expropriated land from.

One family by the 1500's had estates in 50 different locations in Courland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under its control.

In practical terms, it is far too late, and realistically it ain't never gonna happen, but in theory the principal is sound.

It's politics of envy which prevent some people from acknowledging this.

 

[Vixen]

No I don't. I'm just countering yet another historical falsification by the OP that the Finns would have been overrun (and displaced) countless times by Slavic hordes. She's been continuously distorting Finnish history, specifically what Finland did during the Continuation War. FTR, I think Finland was fully justified in defending itself and its territorial integrity during the Winter War, that is not up to debate.

Whoa! I didn't say displaced. I said overrun.

The Russians are totally different in language, culture, cuisine and church.

There is a common love of beetroot, dill, summer cottages/dachas, polkas and vodka but no, there is no displacement.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

From wiki:



So Estonia and Latvia need to recompense the Baltic Germans they expropriated land from.

One family by the 1500's had estates in 50 different locations in Courland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under its control.

In practical terms, it is far too late, and realistically it ain't never gonna happen, but in theory the principal is sound.

It's politics of envy which prevent some people from acknowledging this.

Truly we must lament the plight faced by large landowners How about recompensating the descendants of the peasants and commoners they abused?

 

[erwinl]

Truly we must lament the plight faced by large landowners How about recompensating the descendants of the peasants and commoners they abused?

I believe that was done in 1919. So that's alright then, I guess.

 

[ddt]

From wiki:



So Estonia and Latvia need to recompense the Baltic Germans they expropriated land from.

One family by the 1500's had estates in 50 different locations in Courland and Livonia during different periods of time and had over 56,000 hectares of land under its control.

In practical terms, it is far too late, and realistically it ain't never gonna happen, but in theory the principal is sound.

It's politics of envy which prevent some people from acknowledging this.

A "principal" is the head of a school (*). Perhaps you mean "principle"?

(*) ETA: or the main sum, in contrast to the interest due/accrued over it.

I see you're still evading the question. What percentage of their land was expropriated by the Estonian and Latvian governments in these reforms? Previously, you said "some", then "most". I want to see you calculate the actual percentage.

Or are you not really an accountant?

 

[ddt]

Whoa! I didn't say displaced. I said overrun.

The Russians are totally different in language, culture, cuisine and church.

There is a common love of beetroot, dill, summer cottages/dachas, polkas and vodka but no, there is no displacement.

So what was the point with your claim about being overrun? And why did you post a totally irrelevant list of wars about that - most of which were not about Finland nor fought there?

 

[Vixen]

Truly we must lament the plight faced by large landowners How about recompensating the descendants of the peasants and commoners they abused?

Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)

 

[Vixen]

A "principal" is the head of a school (*). Perhaps you mean "principle"?

(*) ETA: or the main sum, in contrast to the interest due/accrued over it.

I see you're still evading the question. What percentage of their land was expropriated by the Estonian and Latvian governments in these reforms? Previously, you said "some", then "most". I want to see you calculate the actual percentage.

Or are you not really an accountant?

I don't need to do any calculations, as it is spelt out in the wiki article.

Well done, you spotted a typo!

 

[Vixen]

So what was the point with your claim about being overrun? And why did you post a totally irrelevant list of wars about that - most of which were not about Finland nor fought there?

Finland has suffered Russian troops tramping over it and vandalising it many many times. Just because you didn't know that, doesn't make it not so.

 

[Vixen]

I believe that was done in 1919. So that's alright then, I guess.

Was the despatch of the Romanovs good or bad?

 

[ddt]

Being a serf is not necessarily being "abused", any more than someone having to go out and earn a wage (oh, is that the time...?)

So now you're also advocating in favour of slavery?

 

[ddt]

I don't need to do any calculations, as it is spelt out in the wiki article.

The necessary ingredients are there, but the wiki article doesn't give the percentage. Why don't you show us that you can do at least primary school arithmetic?

 

[ddt]

Finland has suffered Russian troops tramping over it and vandalising it many many times. Just because you didn't know that, doesn't make it not so.

Why don't you give us that list? That wiki article included lots of wars that didn't come close to Finland.

 

[erwinl]

Was the despatch of the Romanovs good or bad?

Removing the Romanovs from government was good. they had made a true mess of the county when they were in charge and simply had to go. Even though they had been in charge for some 300 years.

Now killing them was bad. But that's a civil war for you. Usually very uncivil indeed.

 

[Tolls]

Why don't you give us that list? That wiki article included lots of wars that didn't come close to Finland.

And even those that did included wars in which Sweden attacked Russia.
For most of them Finland was a sideshow.