Should the Baltic Germans be compensated by Russia?

[ddt]

Anyway, I think we can all conclude that the Viking Age Swedes are to blame, as always, and Roslagen should be ceded to the Baltic states as reparations.

You totally misunderstand the thrust of the OP. The Varangians came to educate and build the strong state of the Kievan Rus' for the poor, illiterate, uncultured hicks of East Slavs that lived there. Because of that, Sweden is entitled to regain overlordship over Belarus, Ukraine and Russia and to rule over the local peasants. The name "slavs" really already says what their intended station in life is, isn't it?

 

[Cleon]

Since she says "always", she must clearly mean Руси, being that the Rurikid "Velikyi Knyaz Vseya Rus", and later "Tsar Vseya Rus" predates the Romanov use of "Rossiskaya". (I am not sure when "Rus" got turned into Russkiy - are you? My feeling is that it is a 19th century attempt at creating a distinct Russian - not Great Russian - national identity, but I'm not certain.)

Anyway, I think we can all conclude that the Viking Age Swedes are to blame, as always, and Roslagen should be ceded to the Baltic states as reparations.

My impression is that it was a gradual process that culminated during the reign of Pyotr.

 

[ddt]

My impression is that it was a gradual process that culminated during the reign of Pyotr.

My impression from reading this wiki page is that the forms Русь (Rus') as demonym and русский (russkiy) as adjective have always existed next to each other, like in English "Swede" is the demonym and "Swedish" the adjective. As to the alternative form российский (rossiyskiy), that seems to have come up in the 15th Century - as a backformation from the Greek Ρωσσια which has an "o" in it? This paragraph from that wiki page is interesting:

Different from other Slavic languages, in the specific case of the Russian language, russkij (русский) refers to both the Rus' people and modern day Russians, rossijskij (российский), with no distinction (deliberately implying[original research?] both to be the same people with the same language — see Russification). In modern Polish the words being ruski (adj. of Rus', Ruthenian, the East Slavs from the historic Kievan Rus') which may equally refer to modern Belarusians, Ukrainians or both, or in a historical context to the people of Kievan Rus'; contrasted to rosyjski (Russian, native to what became of the Grand Duchy of Moscow, developed after the disintegration of the Kievan Rus'). Similarly in other Slavic languages, including modern Ukrainian: rus’kyj (руський) refers to Rus’ (Ruthenian), whereas rosijs’kyj (російський) refers to Russia.

So, depending on whom you ask, the word ruskiy may mean:
1) for an Ukrainian, it means "ruthenian", i.e., it refers nowadays Ukrainians or Belarusian or their ancestors;
2) for an average Russian, it means Russian;
3) for a Russian irredentist, it refers to the triune, all-Russian nation (after all, Ukrainians Little Russians and Belarusians White Russsians are not really separate ethnicities from Great-Russians to them).

 

[Craig B]

What about Sweden, which is named Ruotsi in Finnish?

 

[ddt]

That's nice, doesn't change the fact the USSR was not Russia, oh and of course neither was Stalin Russian. Are you ever going to deal with hard facts or just keep blundering on repeating your false claims?

I guess it's time for another bump:

The same paras in that wiki article say that in Estonia 1,065 estates were expropriated and in Latvia 1,300 estates. Now with the figures there, calculate how much those 50 ha per estate is as percentage of the total land that was owned by the German nobility. Show us for once that you can do highschool math.

I should make one correction: the math required there is primary school math. Vixen claims to be an accountant, and for any accountant, from the most lowly bookkeeper to a partner at a Big Four company, it should be a breeze to do those calculations. I'm beginning to doubt her claims about her profession.

 

[dudalb]

You totally misunderstand the thrust of the OP. The Varangians came to educate and build the strong state of the Kievan Rus' for the poor, illiterate, uncultured hicks of East Slavs that lived there. Because of that, Sweden is entitled to regain overlordship over Belarus, Ukraine and Russia and to rule over the local peasants. The name "slavs" really already says what their intended station in life is, isn't it?

Don't forget Poland. Gustavus Adlophus Lives!

 

[Craig B]

Don't forget Poland. Gustavus Adlophus Lives!

But fortunately Adloph Hitler is dead

 

[Vixen]

By "Russian," do you mean russkiy, or do you mean rossiskiy, and do you know the difference without googling?

Would it be to do with the different dynasties? I understand the Rurik dynasty gave way to the Romanov.

"Between 1609 and 17, the Russian War was held. In the wake of the war Russia was the last Rurik-related Tsar Vasili Suiski, who had murdered the first Vale-Dimitri and came to power. However, he was unable to return the order to the ground. Russia had a time of confusion (smutnoje vremja). Vasili Suiski had to seek help from the king of Sweden. As a reward for assistance, Vasili promised Käkisalmi County." [from http://www.paltta.fi]

 

[Vixen]

I guess it's time for another bump:


I should make one correction: the math required there is primary school math. Vixen claims to be an accountant, and for any accountant, from the most lowly bookkeeper to a partner at a Big Four company, it should be a breeze to do those calculations. I'm beginning to doubt her claims about her profession.

OK, fair enough, most was removed before Stalin came along.

 

[Vixen]

You totally misunderstand the thrust of the OP. The Varangians came to educate and build the strong state of the Kievan Rus' for the poor, illiterate, uncultured hicks of East Slavs that lived there. Because of that, Sweden is entitled to regain overlordship over Belarus, Ukraine and Russia and to rule over the local peasants. The name "slavs" really already says what their intended station in life is, isn't it?

This is all very droll. However, your constant references to an oppressive force occupying or invading someone else's country, as per your ridiculous analogy to white supremacist South African farmers shows either soneone who hasn't a clue about the history of the Baltic region, or is so screwed up with the politics of envy, you can only see peasants as heroes.

FYI pre 1300's the population of Europe was tiny. In the the Baltic region there was probably only a few hundred thousand. There were no passport controls or borders. People could roam and settle wherever they liked.

The early Germans who migrated to the area were initially crusaders keen to establish Christianity across Europe, secondly, they were simple tradesmen who set up a trading post various ports along the way (Vyborg, Riga) setting up the Hanseatic league.

There was a lot of conflict. As the spoils of war, the victorious generals got to divide the land up, with one third each.

As for the South African farmers, the apartheid regime was abhorrent and wrong, a disgusting and repugnant blot on their copy book. However, if they and their families have been living there for generations, then it is their home, just as much as any other South African.

There is no analogy to the Baltic Germans who have occupied the Baltic region for over seven hundred years.

 

[Craig B]

FYI pre 1300's the population of Europe was tiny. In the the Baltic region there was probably only a few hundred thousand. There were no passport controls or borders. People could roam and settle wherever they liked.

And if they found pagan Baltic peoples already there they could remove them, as you now proceed to describe.

There was a lot of conflict. As the spoils of war, the victorious generals got to divide the land up, with one third each.

That's the "feudal crusader" land grab, and their descendants deserve no compensation for losing it. This is different

As for the South African farmers, the apartheid regime was abhorrent and wrong, a disgusting and repugnant blot on their copy book. However, if they and their families have been living there for generations, then it is their home, just as much as any other South African.

So descendants of German Balts have a right to apply for citizenship of the Baltic Republics on the same basis as any other applicants descending from former residents. But no right, as you claim on their behalf, to restitution of estates or ethnic privilege or aristocratic social status.

There is no analogy to the Baltic Germans who have occupied the Baltic region for over seven hundred years.

There are many analogies and similarities, including land tenure originating as "spoils of war".

ETA See wiki.

For centuries Baltic Germans^WP and the Baltic nobility constituted a ruling class over native non-German serfs ... After the Livonian Crusade, they assumed control of government, politics, economics, education and culture of these lands, ruling for more than 700 years until 1918.​

 

[Vixen]

And if they found pagan Baltic peoples already there they could remove them, as you now proceed to describe. That's the "feudal crusader" land grab, and their descendants deserve no compensation for losing it. This is different So descendants of German Balts have a right to apply for citizenship of the Baltic Republics on the same basis as any other applicants descending from former residents. But no right, as you claim on their behalf, to restitution of estates or ethnic privilege or aristocratic social status. There are many analogies and similarities, including land tenure originating as "spoils of war".

ETA See wiki.

For centuries Baltic Germans^WP and the Baltic nobility constituted a ruling class over native non-German serfs ... After the Livonian Crusade, they assumed control of government, politics, economics, education and culture of these lands, ruling for more than 700 years until 1918.​

They were already citizens before they were thrown out by Hitler/Stalin.

What do you think England's founded on. If you knew what percentage of total land is in the hands of landed individuals, the Crown and huge conglomerates you would realise your idealistic vision is not a realistic one.

So, you come along and take it away from the Duke of Bedford, because of some change of government. And you are not going to compensate him or his family who have been there for generations for hundreds of years?

Yes, they were a ruling class but so are the titled English, French, Swedish, etc.

Even you yourself, if you are a home owner, would expect to be able to leave your wealth and assets to your children, or whoever. Do you want your property to go to the state? If the answer is, no, then you are a hypcocrite.

 

[Garrison]

They were already citizens before they were thrown out by Hitler/Stalin.

As pointed out it was Hitler who removed them and the Baltic states who took away the overwhelming majority of their land. So the answer to your OP is still, no.

What do you think England's founded on. If you knew what percentage of total land is in the hands of landed individuals, the Crown and huge conglomerates you would realise your idealistic vision is not a realistic one.

And yet this has nothing to do with your claims about the Baltic Germans being wrong, which is doubtless why you want to focus on it.

So, you come along and take it away from the Duke of Bedford, because of some change of government. And you are not going to compensate him or his family who have been there for generations for hundreds of years?

And should they be compensated by the state that actually appropriated the lands or one you've decided should be responsible in contrast to all the facts?

Yes, they were a ruling class but so are the titled English, French, Swedish, etc.

There's this little thing called democracy, perhaps you've heard of it? Quite popular in the above countries.

 

[Craig B]

Even you yourself, if you are a home owner, would expect to be able to leave your wealth and assets to your children, or whoever. Do you want your property to go to the state? If the answer is, no, then you are a hypcocrite.

I earned the money and bought my home. That is different from being a feudal superior of the property, a category of entitlement that was abolished in Scotland only in 2004, as I have shown. This is one country where feudal relations disappeared from law only a decade ago, so I am aware of the difference between owner occupancy and feudal superiority. The second of these can be abolished without removing the first. That is not hypocrisy, it is common sense. People can still buy homes, live in them and leave them to their children. They can't hold feudal superiority over them. People still work in agriculture, but they are no longer serfs.

Parliaments exist, but they are not now dominated by "titled" aristocrats. Instead, members are elected by universal suffrage. The hereditary monarch is no longer effective head of the government. Do you not know these things?

 

[Vixen]

Be careful what you say, you might end up in a Finnish concentration camp.

(and for clarity: these camps were in Eastern Karelia, a region that never was Finnish but that Finland conquered during WW2, something that Vixen also has been denying).

You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.

Virtually all the claims of cruelty at the Finnish POW camps in Karelia were by Communist Soviets, their usual style of propaganda and masters at spin. The truth is, yes, some camp guards were brutal. However, most of the Soviet POW who died did so because of infectious diseases, rampant in such camps, or because they tried to abscond. The number killed due to murder was probably less than 5K in all, which is 5K too many, but compare and contrast the figures for Stalin and Hitler's abominable concentration camps and appalling death marches. British POWs from Dunkirk were fed poisonous ground acorn, starved and made to go on death marches of many miles after the Allied Forces victory.

Look at the greater evil. Had Stalin succeeded in over-running Finland, or the Red rising in Finland succeeded, we, too, would have had our lands expropriated. Communism would then have spread into Sweden, Norway and ultimately Germany (the Baltic States and Poland having succumbed) and down to Italy, which had a strong communist counter movement against their Black Shirts.

Under your politics of envy, all land would belong to the state, as happened in Livonia, Kurland, and surrounding areas.

And Karelia did belong to Finland, via the Swedish Empire, of which it was a part, from circa 1560 - 1720, as did the the areas along the Baltic coastline. How do you think the Baltic German nobility found their way into Finland during that era?

 

[Vixen]

I earned the money and bought my home. That is different from being a feudal superior of the property, a category of entitlement that was abolished in Scotland only in 2004, as I have shown. This is one country where feudal relations disappeared from law only a decade ago, so I am aware of the difference between owner occupancy and feudal superiority. The second of these can be abolished without removing the first. That is not hypocrisy, it is common sense. People can still buy homes, live in them and leave them to their children. They can't hold feudal superiority over them. People still work in agriculture, but they are no longer serfs.

Parliaments exist, but they are not now dominated by "titled" aristocrats. Instead, members are elected by universal suffrage. The hereditary monarch is no longer effective head of the government. Do you not know these things?

Yours and Garrison's belief that capital and ownership thereof is under the auspices of 'democracy' is a misapprehension.

Truth is, the House of Lords is made up of peers of the realm (the titled mob, whom you despise) who are not subject to democratic election. Likewise, the army, the monarchy and the police are not governed by democracy.

Democracy is only a tiny part of our constitution, if truth be told.

Incidentally, feudalism was abolished by Russia in 1836 (under whom the Baltic states in question were governed from 1721 to about 1917). So, they weren't feudal lords, but common or garden landowners, no different from the landowning class in the UK or elsewhere.

BTW landowner farmers in England, anyway, can, and do, charge a premium for the yield of crops grown by the tenants who work them, in addition to the rent from letting the fields or pastureland out.

 

[Garrison]

You can't get away with this. I researched the issue of Finnish supposed atrocities in great detail, seeking out original accounts as of the time from deep within the British Library archives.

And yet as you have demonstrated in this thread you will ignore any facts that don't fit your theory. What value can anyone here put on your research when you display your prejudices and intellectual dishonesty so clearly?

Yours and Garrison's belief that capital and ownership thereof is under the auspices of 'democracy' is a misapprehension.

And amazingly this latest misrepresentation does nothing to change the answer to your OP, which is still no.

 

[Vixen]

And yet as you have demonstrated in this thread you will ignore any facts that don't fit your theory. What value can anyone here put on your research when you display your prejudices and intellectual dishonesty so clearly?

Heavy on grandstanding, light on content.

Nice.

 

[Garrison]

Heavy on grandstanding, light on content.

Nice.

Well no it's not nice, if you stopped doing it and dealt with the facts that would be nice.

You posted a link in the OP to facts that refuted your position and everything since has been your attempt to ignore those facts with a wealth of inaccurate or irrelevant material, grandstanding at its best.

 

[Vixen]

Well no it's not nice, if you stopped doing it and dealt with the facts that would be nice.

You posted a link in the OP to facts that refuted your position and everything since has been your attempt to ignore those facts with a wealth of inaccurate or irrelevant material, grandstanding at its best.

The thrust holds. They were removed by Hitler ahead of Operation Barbarossa, and then the remainder by Stalin.

They never got their land back, nor adequate recompense for the loss of their home of >700 years.