• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Brexit: Now What? Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
More strife in the cabinet...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44391539

Theresa May will meet with senior ministers later in an attempt to resolve tensions over the government's Brexit "backstop" plan.

In the proposal the UK would match EU tariffs temporarily in order to avoid a hard Irish border post-Brexit.

Number 10 had been expected to publish the "temporary customs arrangement" on Thursday, but faced resistance from Brexit Secretary David Davis.

If only those Remoaners would fall into line then the strongly pro-Brexit cabinet could agree among itself :rolleyes:
 
The cabinet is arguing over the exact proposal they wish to present to the EU, but whichever option they decide upon, the EU will reject it anyway.
 
The cabinet is arguing over the exact proposal they wish to present to the EU, but whichever option they decide upon, the EU will reject it anyway.

Not really, they're still arguing about the basic approach - does the UK intend enter into the transitional period with a fixed end point or will it be open-ended. Something like that should have been determined well before article 50 was enacted. It shouldn't be a bone of contention well over a year into the process.

Whether or not the EU will agree with whatever the cabinet decides is immaterial when it comes down to pointing out that the party that is supposed to be pro-Brexit and which is supposed to lead us through the process still hasn't made some of the most basic decisions about their preferred approach and yet you blame the Remoaners for a lack of progress on Brexit :rolleyes:

IMO the fundamental problem was that there has never been consensus about what form Brexit should take among Leave supporters (a Rees Mogg Brexit is very different to a Corbyn Brexit), much less on the detailed mechanics about how it should be achieved. If it wasn't so important, it would be pathetically amusing :(
 
I don't think that even this is completely true, certainly at the highest level.

Possibly. It's probably a mix of different factors.

I still believe Boris and Gove wanted a slim defeat in order to stage a party political coup.

That's certainly believable, Boris especially was grooming himself to take the reins of power. And the best support for this idea is that when he had the chance to become PM he chose not to so the UK got May instead.

It was quite clear that being the PM who is responsible for Brexit is a poisoned chalice, the likelihood of getting anything close to the fanciful ideas presented during the campaign is next to none and you're almost guaranteed that you'll be crucified at the next election when it all goes tits up.

Tbh I think you can see that with Rees-Mogg. He's out there going on and on about Brexit and May's actions but then turns around and says that he doesn't want to be PM.

The actions of many other leaders of the Leave campaigns also suggests they "didn't want a victory, they just wanted to fight" as they line up foreign passports, residencies etc.

Yeah, makes sense.

All good points. I did not use the term punish, but the EU do have a policy that the UK must be left worse off after leaving the EU. I am sure this is 'pour encourager les autres' or rather discourage any others from leaving. The UK has to be made an example of, any punishment is just an 'unintended' consequence.

By definition the UK would be worse off when it comes to EU matters by leaving, it's just the level of worse-off-ness depends.

At the very least the UK can't leave and still expect to be able to directly influence EU policy as it is able to do now being part of the EU. Depending on what the UK wants to/does not want to accept their position will affect how much worse off they'll be.

I would disagree over the club metaphor; any analogy is always limited. In this case the members of the club will make the rules; an affiliate will have to follow the rules when in the club, but can be a member of other clubs. The argument that the UK cannot have a bespoke deal is nonsense all deals are bespoke; between the EU and Norway, the EU and Canada; the EU and Switzerland etc.

The problem isn't that the UK can't have a bespoke deal, it's that the bespoke deal they want would be better than a country being in the EU. To keep using the club analogy, what the UK wants is to be an affiliate of the club but not have to follow any of the rules of the club, nor have to listen to people who decide if you've broken the rules while in the club. It'd be fair to say that no club would accept such a position from an affiliate regardless of whether that affiliate was a former full member of the club.

Yes there are two issues. The GFA, and Brexit. The EU insisted on the linkage.

Because they are. Cross border policies undertaken by bodies empowered by the GFA and relevant legislation are going to be seriously affected by circumstances that would require a hard, or harder, border.

I do not think that the EU has provided a solution; except in saying that the UK has to remain part of the common travel / trade area and subject to the ECJ. Essentially the EU is saying that the UK can check out of the EU but it can never leave.

Tbh I think the main solution the EU has is that the UK doesn't leave. You list a second solution there, the third one was that NI remains in the customs union/EFTA while the rest of the UK leaves. All of these solutions have been shot down for one reason or another.

The Good Friday agreement is between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, the EU is not party to the agreement. Ireland as part of the EU is entitled to participate in the negotiations between the UK and the EU, but the EU should not be party to negotiations between RoI and the UK.

They are in as much as the agreement is affected by Brexit. Effectively what's being asked from Ireland is how the UK is going to be able to uphold their end of the GFA given the changes in circumstances that will happen once the UK leaves.

I would argue that at most the EU should have said that the RoI like all other members of the EU ultimately would have a veto on any agreement.

But they already do have that. IIRC the final agreement requires unanimity from the Council of Europe. All you're suggesting is that the EU says that Ireland has the right to do something they already have the right to do.

The RoI could then have said that they would veto any agreement if no agreement over the GFA could be reached. It is not up to the EU to say whether any arrangements on the border between RoI and the UK meet the GFA that is a decision that the RoI and the UK need to come to.

Ireland, as a sovereign nation, has the right to ensure their interests are represented. Since their interests regarding the GFA rely on a deal that's able to fulfil those interests they are negotiating it now instead of just vetoing whatever gets decided on because nobody discussed them.
 
Glad you finally accept the promises and aims of the brexiteers camp are unrealistic.
While the EU are only prepared to dictate rather than negotiate, any policy short of outright capitulation is unrealistic. The only remaining option, unless the EU change their stance, is a no deal Brexit.
 
Not really, they're still arguing about the basic approach - does the UK intend enter into the transitional period with a fixed end point or will it be open-ended.

Which is tied in to how quickly a post-Brexit trade deal can be agreed to avoid changing systems more than once. However a fixed date weakens the UK negotiating position for getting a good deal, as there is a risk of a cliff-edge if the planned deadline is met. On the other hand an open-ended transitional period gives no incentive to actually reach a deal.

As with many negotiations it's all about selecting the least-worst option.
 
Effectively what's being asked from Ireland is how the UK is going to be able to uphold their end of the GFA given the changes in circumstances that will happen once the UK leaves.

I can see that if no alternative can be agreed, we'll end up with the fallback solution of a border poll, and a complete renegotiation of the GFA given that circumstances have changed.
 
It's certainly least-worst economically, but not politically.


I disagree. I think the nation now knows it's a *************** and, in the main, are waiting for someone with the bollocks to stand up and say 'we've had a really good look at it and it's a bad idea, let's not do it'

I think the same press that failed so very, very spectacularly during the campaign have, again, misread the mood of the nation.
 
Which is tied in to how quickly a post-Brexit trade deal can be agreed to avoid changing systems more than once. However a fixed date weakens the UK negotiating position for getting a good deal, as there is a risk of a cliff-edge if the planned deadline is met. On the other hand an open-ended transitional period gives no incentive to actually reach a deal.

As with many negotiations it's all about selecting the least-worst option.

If you're having to find the least worst option, then perhaps you have to consider whether you're doing the wrong thing. ;)

Of course "least worst" is also a movable feast, especially when there are dogmatically held political positions (from either side) that also have to be factored in.
 
While the EU are only prepared to dictate rather than negotiate, any policy short of outright capitulation is unrealistic. The only remaining option, unless the EU change their stance, is a no deal Brexit.
I can understand your frustration in finding out, despite what you were told, that the UK needs the EU far more than they need us and that the EU are the ones negotiating from a position of strength.
 
If you're having to find the least worst option, then perhaps you have to consider whether you're doing the wrong thing. ;)

Of course "least worst" is also a movable feast, especially when there are dogmatically held political positions (from either side) that also have to be factored in.

Once the result was announced, there was really no going back, and least worst is the only way forward.
 
Once the result was announced, there was really no going back, and least worst is the only way forward.

Of course there was, the referendum was non-binding and a government that was motivated by the welfare of the country as opposed to addressing its own infighting could have done a quick impact analysis and come to the conclusion that Brexit wasn't in the country's interest.
 
Of course there was, the referendum was non-binding and a government that was motivated by the welfare of the country as opposed to addressing its own infighting could have done a quick impact analysis and come to the conclusion that Brexit wasn't in the country's interest.


I still think there's a possibility that sense will be seen.

I honestly think that a majority of the 52% now realise they were lied to and hoodwinked by the amoral.
 
I still think there's a possibility that sense will be seen.

I honestly think that a majority of the 52% now realise they were lied to and hoodwinked by the amoral.

I don't agree, I'd be very surprised if there was any significant movement on either side of the debate.

One of the things that has impressed me in discussions with pro-Brexit voters is their absolute faith that the EU will finally see sense and largely adopt the UK's preferred position of being able to pick and choose what the UK wants without any additional conditions. They have no reason to change their point of view because they are certain that the UK will end up with a better deal with the EU and that the UK's trade deals with other, non-EU, countries will be similarly excellent.
 
I still think there's a possibility that sense will be seen.

I honestly think that a majority of the 52% now realise they were lied to and hoodwinked by the amoral.

But Article 50 has been activated, and status quo ante is not guaranteed to be available.
 
While the EU are only prepared to dictate rather than negotiate, any policy short of outright capitulation is unrealistic. The only remaining option, unless the EU change their stance, is a no deal Brexit.

Your position appears to boil down to, "the EU should mop up the milk the UK has spilled, and then give the UK a free new full bottle (a pint, obviously)."
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom