Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[Axxman300]

I simply do not value money as much as some other people, and also I don't think that a system that relies on kindness will be an effective one. You should check out socialism, it adapts to human nature and also such a situation like piracy under heavy socialist policies would be avoided because pay would be equal.

I'm sure Socialists everywhere are just thrilled their cause is being used to justify theft.

 

[MicahJava]

Is that the official test required by the practice of criminology?

Can you cite for that?

Hank

Would that not be expected?

 

[bknight]

BTW Hank, do we know how many rounds the FBI test fired in order to change the grooves of the barrel so much that the HSCA later couldn't find any rifling match between CE399 and their test shots? From what I know, all we have is testimony from the 60's stating that the test shots matched CE399 and CE 567. No remaining photographic record or anything like we have with the RFK case.

Citation for this bare assertion.

 

[No Other]

Easy-peasy. As easy as 3-2-1 in fact..

Three shell discovered shortly after the assassination at the sniper's nest window were ballistically traceable to Oswald's rifle to the EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER WEAPONS IN THE WORLD.

Two large fragments discovered the night of the assassination in the Presidential limousine were ballistically traceable to Oswald's rifle to the EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER WEAPONS IN THE WORLD.

One nearly whole bullet discovered in the hospital near Connally's stretcher on the afternoon of the assassination was ballistically traceable to Oswald's rifle to the EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER WEAPONS IN THE WORLD.

Now you'll quibble over the claims and pretend the evidence isn't admissible because [whatever you can think of the moment] but all that evidence is admissible and all of it establishes Oswald's rifle was fired not only on the day of the assassination, but at the time of the assassination and at the Presidential limousine. To the EXCLUSION OF ALL PLACES AND TIMES.

Hank

I am not quibbling over anything, your preemptive poisoning of the well is distracting.
I am respecting your claims since you have stated that.

It appears that the bullets were fired from the rifle; the rest should be fairly straight forward... what physical evidence did the FBI obtain that put the rifle in Oswald's hand that day?

 

[jeffas69]

This is CIA’s fall back position popping up now and again over the years. No, there is not a single piece of evidence of Castro taking part in the conspiracy to assassinate JFK. On the contrary.

You dismiss this out of hand for lack of evidence. Good for you!

But then you do this:

But, the threat of ”Castro did it = American people would demand revenge = third world nuclear war”, was a very effective thought stopper and the chief instrument for the cover up.

Who wants a nuclear war with a projected 40 million Americans dead the first hour alone?

That was how LBJ recruited among others a very unwilling Earl Warren to head his white wash ”truth” commission.

Same amount of evidence for both!

 

[Axxman300]

Also, what about books that do not exist in ebook format officially for sale? Can we pirate OCR'd scanned copies of those books or do we have to swallow in our filth for a thousand years with physical copies bought at fluctuating prices that must be ordered through the mail when you just need a single obscure reference?

Get a library card. Order the books if they are not available, then you can photocopy the hell out of them, and scan them into your computer, or just keep paper files...like real historians do.

The other reason to by a book, or to check out the book from a library is that YOU HAVE TO READ THE WHOLE BOOK. The biggest reason you constantly fail with this subject, and the other CT's you've bought into, is that you never understand the context wherein the information is presented. You're theory about the EOP is not you discovering an inconsistency proving a conspiracy, it's you not understanding the information in context.

I know that Hank has read most of the books, and he either bought them, or he visited a local library. I still have three or four CT books in my collection out of the dozen I used to own. The rest I read at the library.

Any used book store will have CT books, and Amazon has a used book market that I have found long out of print books for sale cheap.

Those CT sites you and Manifesto link to all the time leave a whole lot of information out. The good books, even the better CT books do not. You handicap yourself by pirating information.

 

[No Other]

The honest problem with all of that is that Oswald's visit to Mexico City was in the last week of September, 1963, returning to Texas on 2, October.

Oswald doesn't begin working at the TSBD until 16, October.

The President's visit to Dallas wasn't confirmed until 4, November.

So he had no way of knowing that he'd even have the opportunity to kill JFK while he was in Mexico City, at least not so soon. There would be a long campaign for JFK the following year that would certainly bring him to Dallas or New Orleans.

The big problem for a massive conspiracy in relation to Oswald is the time-line:

Oswald buys the rifle in March, 1963, and received it on 25, March.
On 10, April he takes a shot at General Walker.

This suggests that Walker was his original target.

From that point on the Carcano is with him, or is within easy access from the time he moves to New Orleans, until the time he kills JFK. This suggests that he was looking for a high profile target to kill, but he never gets the chance. He tries to worm his way into a local anti-Castro Cuban group while there, but then they see him handing out FPCC fliers. He gets his tourist card from the Mexican Consulate in New Orleans, and leaves for Texas the next week.

So the questions are:

What was his game in trying to kill Walker?
Was he alone in that act? If not, was it a test-run to show his commitment to the cause (whatever that was)?

His move to New Orleans seems strange until you remember that he was from that area, and would have felt comfortable there. Yet he tries to link up with anti-Castro Cubans AFTER trying to murder General Walker. Why?

While he is in New Orleans a local paper runs a long investigative piece about the Kennedy Administration's ongoing operations to kill Castro, and overthrow his regime.

Bottom Line:

The only through-line between Walker and JFK is that they were both men working to overthrow the Communist government of Cuba, and they were easy targets, with JFK rolling right under Oswald's window on 22, November.

Oswald was just a guy with a rifle, and an over-inflated sense of self.

*Keep in mind that it had been raining in Dallas that day, and had the sun not come out the limo would have had its bubble-top, making it harder to kill the President. That decision was made on the ground when he arrived at Love Field.*

You bring up an interesting point in JFK and Walker. JFK and Walker were polar opposites YET Oswald attempts to take them both out. What is gained? If Oswald is successful in taking out Walker, how does that help any cause?

 

[MicahJava]

Where did Hoover lie about that? Tomlinson's failure to identify three years later doesn't exclude CE399 as being the bullet. We've talked about recollection often enough that you should know it by now by heart. Recollections years after the fact aren't very reliable. In fact, they start degrading the very day they are formed and can be influenced by stuff read, heard or seen since, as well as something as benign as the way the question was asked.

Pretend some more that recollections are valuable. We know why you do. It's all you really have - false memory.

Hank

So you didn't read the link? Try seven months.

[IMGw=600]https://i.imgur.com/3bVgEMb.gif[/IMGw]

[IMGw=600]https://i.imgur.com/9li2K8B.gif[/IMGw]

 

[No Other]

Not necessary:
1. A rifle was fired at JFK, killing him.
2. The rifling on the bullets recovered matched those of that particular rifle to the exclusion of any other weapon in existence.
3. Therefore that rifle was used to assassinate the President, and was fired that day.

,,, and what is left is putting that same rifle in Oswald's hands.

 

[MicahJava]

Yo Hank isn't aware of basic stuff about CE399 that he should know by now, as evidenced above. I should probably feel grateful when his posts are at least intelligible.

 

[Axxman300]

Did anybody ever claim to smell gunpowder on the rifle or at the Sniper's Nest?

Did anybody smell Solenite?

I ask because that is the propellant in the Carcano round( trinitrocellulose (40%), dinitrocellulose (21%), nitroglycerine (36%) and mineral oil (3%)).

 

[HSienzant]

His move to New Orleans seems strange until you remember that he was from that area, and would have felt comfortable there.

He moved to New Orleans two weeks after the attempt on Walker. That appears from here more than a little coincidental.

Quite possibly he felt if he hung around the FBI or the police might eventually start looking at him as a possible suspect in the Walker shooting. When he got to New Orleans he gets arrested (on purpose, I suspect, in a fight he provoked by first trying to befriend the anti-Castro Cubans and then handing out pro-Castro literature) and then asks to talk to a FBI agent. When he does, he deliberately leaves out any mention of living in Dallas, where the attempt on Walker happened. The FBI agent - Quigley - and the cop - Martello - who interviewed him both felt the whole thing was staged by Oswald and his statement was entirely self-serving, in that he removed himself from Dallas and inflated his fake FPCC chapter, claiming it contained 35 people.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/quigley.htm

Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression as to why he had requested the interview?
Mr. QUIGLEY. Well, he was in police custody at the time, involved in a disturbing of the peace charge, was becoming involved in a fight with three Cubans on the street in the distribution of Fair Play for Cuba literature. I felt that he was probably making a self-serving statement in attempting to explain to me why he was distributing this literature, and for no other reason, and when I got to questioning him further then he felt that his purpose had been served and he wouldn't say anything further.​

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martell1.htm

Mr. LIEBELER - In the next paragraph of your report, you indicate that Oswald told you that there were about 35 members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans. Did you have any reason to question that statement?
Mr. MARTELLO - I didn't believe it was a true Statement because of the fact that there was very little activity, to my knowledge, of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in the city of New Orleans, and since it was such a new organization, or which appeared to me to be a new organization in the city, it didn't seem likely there would be 35 members in the community.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever become aware of the existence of any other member of the group in New Orleans----
Mr. MARTELLO - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Other than Oswald?
Mr. MARTELLO - No; other than information that had been developed that there were some possible connections. However, there was no basis in fact that any other person, to my knowledge, was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. This particular man, Oswald, was the first person that I have come in contact with that I knew for a fact stated he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Mr. LIEBELER - He is not only the first person you came in contact with who indicated he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, but he is the only one that you ever saw or heard of in the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO - That is correct. ​

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

So you didn't read the link? Try seven months.

[IMGw=600]https://i.imgur.com/3bVgEMb.gif[/IMGw]

[IMGw=600]https://i.imgur.com/9li2K8B.gif[/IMGw]

So...a couple of guys who handled the bullet for a few minutes can't "identify" it six months later? You know could identify it? The ballistics technician.

The fact that this memo even exists testifies to the FBI's honesty in the investigation. They didn't have to mention it, the chain of custody is detailed within the memo you posted meaning it's the same bullet.

Derp.

 

[Axxman300]

,,, and what is left is putting that same rifle in Oswald's hands.

His finger prints are STILL on the rifle.

Fingers can be found on the human hand, last time I checked.

 

[MicahJava]

Citation for this bare assertion.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_F2_Findings.pdf


Actually, the HSCA did say that two FBI test-fired bullets remained from their 1960's experiments, CE 572, and that they did match CE 399.

 

[bknight]

So...a couple of guys who handled the bullet for a few minutes can't "identify" it six months later? You know could identify it? The ballistics technician.

The fact that this memo even exists testifies to the FBI's honesty in the investigation. They didn't have to mention it, the chain of custody is detailed within the memo you posted meaning it's the same bullet.

Derp.

Is this a technical term regarding chain of custody?

 

[bknight]

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_F2_Findings.pdf


Actually, the HSCA did say that two FBI test-fired bullets remained from their 1960's experiments, CE 572, and that they did match CE 399.

BTW Hank, do we know how many rounds the FBI test fired in order to change the grooves of the barrel so much that the HSCA later couldn't find any rifling match between CE399 and their test shots? From what I know, all we have is testimony from the 60's stating that the test shots matched CE399 and CE 567. No remaining photographic record or anything like we have with the RFK case.

As usual you cited the wrong piece of evidence, but that's my fault for believing you might know what I was looking for.
Now one more time citation that the FBI changed the rifling of the weapon?

 

[MicahJava]

So...a couple of guys who handled the bullet for a few minutes can't "identify" it six months later? You know could identify it? The ballistics technician.

The fact that this memo even exists testifies to the FBI's honesty in the investigation. They didn't have to mention it, the chain of custody is detailed within the memo you posted meaning it's the same bullet.

Derp.

What "Ballistics technician"? You don't research the basic facts I bring up even when given the means to do so, you have either forgotten or pretend to forget that another separate FBI memo falsely claimed that Wright and Tomlinson did visually identify CE399, and now you're just making up people who have never existed.

 

[Axxman300]

Is this a technical term regarding chain of custody?

As far as anybody knows

 

[HSienzant]

BTW Hank, do we know how many rounds the FBI test fired in order to change the grooves of the barrel

That's not why they fired test shots. They fired the initial test shots to obtain bullets to match against CE399 and the two large fragments. Additional test shots were fired to determine the accuracy of the weapon and how fast it could be operated. Are you suggesting those tests should not have been performed? At no point did they fire test shots "to change the grooves of the barrel" as you falsely claim.

...so much that the HSCA later couldn't find any rifling match between CE399 and their test shots?

The HSCA firearms panel determined the CE139 rifle had rusted over the preceding 15 years and in rusting, the microscopic impressions had changed. They did look at the original FBI materials and determine the shells, the two fragments, and the one bullet all matched the test bullets obtained initially from the rifle.

See this link, paragraphs 136, 137, 138 (pages 368 & 369): http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_F2_Findings.pdf

From what I know, all we have is testimony from the 60's stating that the test shots matched CE399 and CE 567. No remaining photographic record or anything like we have with the RFK case.

That is false and that has been pointed out to you before in this thread. You repeat the claptrap anyway.

Here is CE566 - showing the microscopic comparison between the test bullet and the bullet recovered from Parkland Hospital. Since the microscopic markings are random and laid down at the time of the machining of the rifle barrel and change slightly with use, the fact that CE399 matches the test bullet means CE399 was fired from that rifle TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER WEAPONS IN THE WORLD sometime shortly before the test bullet was obtained.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0141a.htm

You will no doubt now proceed to argue that CE399 is a plant, or CE139 is a plant, or everything is planted or falsified.

Hank