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Captain_Swoop said:
Trump tweets

"As has been stated by numerous legal scholars, I have the absolute right to PARDON myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong? In the meantime, the never ending Witch Hunt, led by 13 very Angry and Conflicted Democrats (& others) continues into the mid-terms!"
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One can easily make the argument that POTUS could pardon himself. One also could easily make the argument that he cannot. This was discussed in great detail during the Nixon and the Clinton administration. I'm also sure it has been made in the past. Most Constitutional scholars I've read would disagree with Trump. That said, if a President did this, it would certainly be tested legally and SCOTUS would have to rule and frankly I'm unsure how they would rule.

My hope is that they would rule against a President who would do that as such a pardon would put the President above and beyond the law.
 
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In reply to trumps tweet.

Adam Schiff
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Verified account

@RepAdamSchiff

"President Nixon asked the Department of Justice if he could pardon himself. They said no, as no one may be the judge in their own case. He resigned three days later.

In case you want to follow the Nixon model, that would be Thursday."
 
Doesn't all this discussion of the President pardoning himself just make it more likely that someone is going to bring state charges against him?
 
acbytesla said:
One can easily make the argument that POTUS could pardon himself. One also could easily make the argument that he cannot. This was discussed in great detail during the Nixon and the Clinton administration. I'm also sure it has been made in the past. Most Constitutional scholars I've read would disagree with Trump. That said, if a President did this, it would certainly be tested legally and SCOTUS would have to rule and frankly I'm unsure how they would rule.



My hope is that they would rule against a President who would do that as such a pardon would put the President above and beyond the law.
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It’s an academic discussion, as the glorious leader is so clearly pure as the driven snow, it’s clearly not going to happen.
 
pgwenthold said:
Doesn't all this discussion of the President pardoning himself just make it more likely that someone is going to bring state charges against him?
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So he can’t pardon himself from state level crimes? I though it was a blanket pardon for all wrongdoing.
 
acbytesla said:
One can easily make the argument that POTUS could pardon himself. One also could easily make the argument that he cannot. This was discussed in great detail during the Nixon and the Clinton administration. I'm also sure it has been made in the past. Most Constitutional scholars I've read would disagree with Trump. That said, if a President did this, it would certainly be tested legally and SCOTUS would have to rule and frankly I'm unsure how they would rule.

My hope is that they would rule against a President who would do that as such a pardon would put the President above and beyond the law.
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I hope they would rule in accordance with the correct understanding of the Constitution and not necessarily my preference.
 
pgwenthold said:
Doesn't all this discussion of the President pardoning himself just make it more likely that someone is going to bring state charges against him?
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I think that's well down the road.

What I hope is those GOP legislators start to realize they are backing a
criminal enterprise like the country has never seen and come to their senses.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
In reply to trumps tweet.

Adam Schiff
‏
Verified account

@RepAdamSchiff

"President Nixon asked the Department of Justice if he could pardon himself. They said no, as no one may be the judge in their own case. He resigned three days later.

In case you want to follow the Nixon model, that would be Thursday."
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You know, all this discussion of whether he can or can't should be moot. If congress had any backbone at all, they'd make it clear - you try that nonsense, and we are going to impeach.

Of course, that would require congress to have anything resembling ethics or a backbone.
 
BobTheCoward said:
I hope they would rule in accordance with the correct understanding of the Constitution and not necessarily my preference.
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That's the point. It's NOT entirely clear. The Constitution grants POTUS the right to pardon. But issuing a pardon is NOT something one does for himself to himself. It has also been a legal maxim that predates the United States in common law that no one can sit in judgment on himself.

So, what is the right to pardon? What legal precedent there is says "no" he can't but that involved a governor's right to pardon.
 
acbytesla said:
That's the point. It's NOT entirely clear. The Constitution grants POTUS the right to pardon. But issuing a pardon is NOT something one does for himself to himself. It has also been a legal maxim that predates the United States in common law that no one can sit in judgment on himself.

So, what is the right to pardon? What legal precedent there is says "no" he can't but that involved a governor's right to pardon.
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My point was I hope they resolve those questions correctly.
 
BobTheCoward said:
My point was I hope they resolve those questions correctly.
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What do you consider correct? It CAN be read both ways.

My understanding of Constitutional law makes me believe that previous Supreme Courts would have little problem telling the President "no, you can't pardon yourself", but given some recent decisions, I'm afraid they wouldn't.

It's not like every decision the Court has made over the years has been a good one. See Plessy v Ferguson and Dred Scott v Sandford to name two off the top of my head. This would be an opportunity for the Court to end the debate on this claim.

For me it is simple, no President can place himself above and beyond justice. To allow that would tear at the fabric of democracy as there would be no consequences for illegal actions.
 
TheSupermeerkat said:
So he can’t pardon himself from state level crimes? I though it was a blanket pardon for all wrongdoing.
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Nope.

Leaving behind the question about whether a president can pardon himself (its never been tested in courts; most legal experts would probably say No he Can't but you can probably find a few that say he can). Even if the president COULD pardon himself, those pardons only apply to Federal crimes. It means that in theory the state of New York could arrest Trump for crimes and he couldn't even TRY to pardon himself.

This applies to all crimes... presidential pardons only apply to federal crimes, not state crimes.

In fact, Mueller may be using that fact during his criminal investigations. There are some crimes he could have had Manafort charged with but didn't. One of the reasons may be that he is concerned that Trump may pardon him, but if he gets New York to charge him under state law, Trump could no longer pardon him.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...trategy_for_outmaneuvering_trump_pardons.html
 
acbytesla said:
What do you consider correct? It CAN be read both ways.

My understanding of Constitutional law makes me believe that previous Supreme Courts would have little problem telling the President "no, you can't pardon yourself", but given some recent decisions, I'm afraid they wouldn't.

It's not like every decision the Court has made over the years has been a good one. See Plessy v Ferguson and Dred Scott v Sandford to name two off the top of my head. This would be an opportunity for the Court to end the debate on this claim.

For me it is simple, no President can place himself above and beyond justice. To allow that would tear at the fabric of democracy as there would be no consequences for illegal actions.
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I don't see why what I consider correct should matter.
 
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