Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[manifesto]

Once again. Where is evidence for the exit wound for this frontal shot.

Where is the exit for the back wound?

That’s not the primary issue. The primary issue is why it got covered up.

- Dr. Perry lying to the WC that it was the press who had misquoted him at Parkland. Transcript from the press conference later found, show that the press did NOT misquote him.

- LIFE Magazine publishing an article saying that JFK turned around almost 180˚ when hit in the throat = not a shot from in front.

- The autopsy doctors ordered by ”some general” to stop brobing JFK’s bullet holes for direction and/or trajectories.

- Dr. Humes lying to the WC of not knowing of the bullet hole beneath the tracheotomy in spite of being on the phone with Dr. Perry the evening/night of the autopsy = did not investigate it for direction or trajectory.

For your supposed frontal knoll headshot. Where is the evidence for an exit wound on the left side of JFK'S head?

I listed the evidence. Missing something in particular?

The exit wound was a big gaping wound in the right side of the back of the head according almost all of the witnesses observing and handling JFK’s headwounds after the shooting.

An exit wound in the right back of the head is NOT visible in the x-rays or autopsy photographs, correct.

My contention is that the x-rays are forgeries and that the photos of the back of the head are taken after the reconstruction of JFK’s headwounds making him presentable for the coming funeral.

 

[manifesto]

The word evident is close in spelling to evidence aren't you afraid you will burst into flames by using it?

The word is self-evident, a prominent substitute for scientific evidence in your Might Church.

Holy.

 

[Hans]

.....deleted as unimportant.....

I see flames all about you. oh my you are running and not providing evidence again.

LOL

Run burning Manifesto run.

ROFL

 

[Hans]

Deleted a fine response

What are the odds he'll run for it or will he surprise us all and provide actual cites and evidence???

 

[smartcooky]

Oh, I almost forgot to address your BS claim about the money order...

Lets begin. Why are all the bank stamps missing on the monyorder?

Why would there need to be actual bank stamps on a money order when the issuing bank uses Hollerith tabulating machine?

See those holes in the paper; I have encircled them in red so that you can see them more clearly? They are punch holes made by bank keypunch machine. Back in the 1960's, when a money order or cheque is processed by whoever clears it (a bank for example) its run in a batch with hundreds or even thousands of others (depending on the size of the bank); each batch was handled by a keypunch machine operator.

A Hollerith tabulation machine reads those punch marks in whatever is being processed, in this case, a money order. This was typical at most banks in the USA, the vast majority of which used IBM 407s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_407

A 1961 IBM407 Tabulator that use "Hollerith Code"

ETA: also note along the bottom of the front of the card the words "Do not fold, staple, spindle, or mutilate". This is written there because, beginning in the 1950's when punched cards became widespread, manufacturers printed a warning on cards that would be individually handled (like money orders). The reason for this is that doing any of those things would likely render the card unreadable by the tabulation machine. This is proof that the money order would have been expected to be machine read, not hand stamped.

Finally, the number along the top "138 4159796" was a US Treasury Dept locator code, it was printed on the money order by the bank at the time the money order is paid out.

 

[Axxman300]

Meanwhile, I have continued to poke through the latest documents in the National Archives, and I found this collection of reports sent bay the Tampa Bay FBI field office regarding a suspect, or what is called today a "Person of Interest".

I need to state that this is just one of hundreds of such documents in the Archives which demonstrate that the truth was the FBI was running down leads as best they could, and while I am clearly having a little fun with this one I don't consider this man to be involved.

That all said, here's the link to the PDF:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/docid-32199836.pdf

Here's the thumbnail; the suspect was a Gilberto Lopez, a truck driver for a construction materials company. Mr. Lopez was also a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC). Included in this PDF is a short file from 1962, meaning the FBI had looked at him already.

Mr. Lopez attended a FPCC meeting in Tampa, FL, on 11/17/63. On 11/20/63 Mr. Lopez obtains a tourist card from the Mexican Consulate in Tampa, and on 11/23/63 - one day after the assassination - he crosses into Mexico at Nuevo Laredo, and in a car he did not own, on his way to Mexico City. On 11/27/63 Lopez departs Mexico City for Havana, Cuba.

According to his mother, Mr. Lopez didn't like it in the US and wanted to return to Cuba.

Here's where it gets fun. Gilberto Lopez was approximately 23 years old, 5'7", 125 pounds.

Lee Oswald was 24, 5'8", 135 pounds.

I bring this up because the lead document in this file seems to be about someone in Dallas trying to identify a man in a photograph. The implication is that the man is Mr. Lopez, and not Lee Oswald...suggesting that they resembled each other.

In the history of coincidences this little tale is up there with the best of them. But I think that's all it is, a coincidence. From the evidence in this document the FBI looked at Mr. Lopez's actions for 6 months before filing the report. From the number of documents in this file it is clear that others in the FBI and government have also looked a little harder into Mr. Lopez too.

If I were still a CT-nutjob I could run with this one for a while because it has it all:

A Cuban who resembled Oswald(maybe).
A member of the FPCC which Oswald had started his own chapter in New Orleans.
A truck driver who delivered all over Florida.
A guy who was probably in Texas in 11/22/63.
A guy who crosses the border on 11/23/63 and then returns to Cuba.

All one guy BTW.

Plus, the FBI reports that the CIA's Mexico City station was absolutely no help, and gave them nothing(assuming they had anything to give).

The best part, Lopez is the only passenger on the flight to Cuba.

There's a whole lot of legitimate head-scratching going on with this one.

But whatever, I now return you to our regularly scheduled buffoonery about multiple gunmen in Dealey Plaza, and the small army of CIA agents covering up stuff.

 

[HSienzant]

That’s not the primary issue. The primary issue is why it got covered up.

Change of subject. We saw what you did there.

- Dr. Perry lying to the WC that it was the press who had misquoted him at Parkland. Transcript from the press conference later found, show that the press did NOT misquote him.

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity.​

- LIFE Magazine publishing an article saying that JFK turned around almost 180˚ when hit in the throat = not a shot from in front.

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity.​

- The autopsy doctors ordered by ”some general” to stop brobing JFK’s bullet holes for direction and/or trajectories.

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity.​

- Dr. Humes lying to the WC of not knowing of the bullet hole beneath the tracheotomy in spite of being on the phone with Dr. Perry the evening/night of the autopsy = did not investigate it for direction or trajectory.

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity.​

I listed the evidence.

No, you listed more assertions.

Missing something in particular?

Yes, evidence.

The exit wound was a big gaping wound in the right side of the back of the head according almost all of the witnesses observing and handling JFK’s headwounds after the shooting.

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity.​

An exit wound in the right back of the head is NOT visible in the x-rays or autopsy photographs, correct.

When I was a kid, I didn't understand the saying "Even a broken clock is right twice a day." Now I do.

My contention is that the x-rays are forgeries and that the photos of the back of the head are taken after the reconstruction of JFK’s headwounds making him presentable for the coming funeral.

And you have yet to present any evidence for those contentions.

In other words:

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity.​

I count six more assertions you need to provide evidence for. You're up to 31 assertions with no evidence cited. As I noted previously when I said you fail to present evidence for 95% of your claims, that was a lowball figure. Right now, you're at 0 for 31 in terms of presenting evidence. Which means you're failing at 100% of your claims since I started counting.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

The critical community is not a Mighty Church, RoboTimbo,

LOL. You mean the conspiraloon community? Do you know what "consilience" means? Why do you think the null hypothesis is that Oswald alone assassinated JFK?

Explain.

 

[Axxman300]

Hank, I don't know if you've seen this one. This is the CIA Mexico City Station Chronology, the timeline of events beginning 27, September, 1963, and endong 3, October, 1967:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10014-10046.pdf

Just spent 40 minutes reading half of the 124 pages.

It's a gold mine.

Not only do you have Oswald's actions in Mexico City detailed, but you can see their investigation unfold. There are reports that come in from informants, and from operatives of neighboring counties' intelligence services; some are pretty wild, some are fascinating (Oswald being paid $6,200 by the Cubans to kill JFK etc).

What is fascinating to me is that all of the seeds of every JFK-CT are in this report as the station lists conversations with other agencies, and dignitaries who all had their own theories. There is even mention that the White House suspected Oswald had an accomplice, and the FBI doubting that Oswald was the lone shooter...that's right, the FBI. It's all gossip, mind you, but it lends credence to my pet theory that all of the JFK-CT's were started and spread by employees of the various relevent government agencies.

Anyway, I've added this one to my files.

 

[Hans]

Hank, I don't know if you've seen this one. This is the CIA Mexico City Station Chronology, the timeline of events beginning 27, September, 1963, and endong 3, October, 1967:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10014-10046.pdf

Just spent 40 minutes reading half of the 124 pages.

It's a gold mine.

Not only do you have Oswald's actions in Mexico City detailed, but you can see their investigation unfold. There are reports that come in from informants, and from operatives of neighboring counties' intelligence services; some are pretty wild, some are fascinating (Oswald being paid $6,200 by the Cubans to kill JFK etc).

What is fascinating to me is that all of the seeds of every JFK-CT are in this report as the station lists conversations with other agencies, and dignitaries who all had their own theories. There is even mention that the White House suspected Oswald had an accomplice, and the FBI doubting that Oswald was the lone shooter...that's right, the FBI. It's all gossip, mind you, but it lends credence to my pet theory that all of the JFK-CT's were started and spread by employees of the various relevent government agencies.

Anyway, I've added this one to my files.

Hey anything about my pet theory that some Cuban official at the Embassy said something that sparked in Oswald the idea to ice JFK?

 

[Axxman300]

Hey anything about my pet theory that some Cuban official at the Embassy said something that sparked in Oswald the idea to ice JFK?

Depends on who you ask. Some of the other documents I reviewed tonight featured one from a Soviet who claimed to have warned the British that Oswald was planning to kill JFK from the time he left Russia, but the memo is reported well after the fact in 1967(I think).

This particular CIA report contains a few accusations of Oswald being paid anywhere between $5,000 and $10,000 in advance to kill JFK. Obviously nobody has ever found that money which is a good indicator on the accuracy of these claims.

The funny thing is that as time passes from the assassination the incoming stories get wilder and wilder.

On the other hand this document alone shows just how hard the CIA was trying to link Oswald to a larger conspiracy, proving the allegation that "The Fix Was In As Soon as the Last Shot Was Fired" is pathetic nonsense.

 

[smartcooky]

And here is something else I thought of when reading through a couple of other discussion forums

If there really was a conspiracy to kill JFK, why on earth go to all the trouble to fake all the evidence to make Oswald the patsy when they could have just hired a professional hitman to take him out at any time they liked and end up with an unsolved case. Why pick an unreliable, aberrant nutcase like Oswald. Remember this guy was a wife-beater with questionable intelligence. He was poor and could hardly feed his family (He was undernourished at the time he was caught, and so were his family). He lived such a strange lifestyle that he was very likely to draw the attention of Law enforcement He would have been a very poor choice as a patsy for the shooting.

Even creating a false paper trail to link him to the gun would have been a nightmare.

- William Waldman of Klein's Sporting goods would have to be in on the conspiracy.

- Oswald's writing would have to be forged on the money order, and on the American Rifleman magazine order form for the rifle, and on the envelopes that enclosed the money order and the order form.

- The issuing stamp (bottom right of the front) from the Dallas bank or money order seller would have to be forged.

- The FBI agents who helped search the Klein's files for the order form on late November 22 and early November 23 must have been lying.

- The "GPO; Mar. 12" and "$21.45" markings that are stamped on the front of the money order would need to be forged.

- The Treasury's file locator number on the top left front would have to be forged, and with a number that would be "in sequence" for the date and time the money order was cashed.

- The Klein's "Pay to the order" stamp on the back would have to be forged, i.e., someone would have to steal Klein's rubber stamp, and create a perfect duplicate.

- The First National Bank of Chicago would have to be in on it too as the money order was recovered from their records after a 7 hour search

And that's just the money order and order form. There are mountains of other evidence that also would need to be faked.

the photograph of Oswald in his yard with the murder weapons
the autopsy
the x-rays
the wound forensics
the ballistic forensics matching the Carcano to JFK's wounds
the ballistic forensics matching the Carcano to the attempted assassination of General Edwin Walker (Retd)
the ballistic forensics matching the Smith & Wesson .38 handgun to Officer JD Tippett

and then there are witnesses who need to be made to lie

the eye-witnesses who saw the shooter in the 6th floor window
the witnesses on the fifth floor who heard the spent shells landing on the floor above them
the witnesses who saw Oswald bring the long package into the TSBD
the witnesses who saw him leaving the TSBD after the shooting
the witness who saw him shoot officer Tippet, and saw him leaving the scene
the policemen who saw him draw his handgun from his belt and attempt to kill one of them

and all this is just for starters

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The exit wound was a big gaping wound in the right side of the back of the head according almost all of the witnesses observing and handling JFK’s headwounds after the shooting.

I freely admit to my lack of expertise in this area, so I am quite prepared to be corrected about this, but:

My understanding is that the grassy knoll, site of Manifesto's purported extra shooter, is on the same side of the road as the TBD, i.e. to the right of the motorcade as it went down Elm Street.
If someone shot JFK from there, wouldn't the bullet come out of the back left side of the head, not the right?

 

[smartcooky]

I freely admit to my lack of expertise in this area, so I am quite prepared to be corrected about this, but:

My understanding is that the grassy knoll, site of Manifesto's purported extra shooter, is on the same side of the road as the TBD, i.e. to the right of the motorcade as it went down Elm Street.
If someone shot JFK from there, wouldn't the bullet come out of the back left

Oops!

 

[bknight]

I freely admit to my lack of expertise in this area, so I am quite prepared to be corrected about this, but:

My understanding is that the grassy knoll, site of Manifesto's purported extra shooter, is on the same side of the road as the TBD, i.e. to the right of the motorcade as it went down Elm Street.
If someone shot JFK from there, wouldn't the bullet come out of the back left side of the head, not the right?

[qimg]http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/files/2013/11/Dealey-plaza-annotated.jpg[/qimg]

If JFK were sitting upright and facing forward, yes. However he was facing slightly left and down after the back to throat wound, thus the bullet entered the back right of the head and blew out the top right.

 

[Hans]

And here is something else I thought of when reading through a couple of other discussion forums

If there really was a conspiracy to kill JFK, why on earth go to all the trouble to fake all the evidence to make Oswald the patsy when they could have just hired a professional hitman to take him out at any time they liked and end up with an unsolved case. Why pick an unreliable, aberrant nutcase like Oswald. Remember this guy was a wife-beater with questionable intelligence. He was poor and could hardly feed his family (He was undernourished at the time he was caught, and so were his family). He lived such a strange lifestyle that he was very likely to draw the attention of Law enforcement He would have been a very poor choice as a patsy for the shooting.

Even creating a false paper trail to link him to the gun would have been a nightmare.

- William Waldman of Klein's Sporting goods would have to be in on the conspiracy.

- Oswald's writing would have to be forged on the money order, and on the American Rifleman magazine order form for the rifle, and on the envelopes that enclosed the money order and the order form.

- The issuing stamp (bottom right of the front) from the Dallas bank or money order seller would have to be forged.

- The FBI agents who helped search the Klein's files for the order form on late November 22 and early November 23 must have been lying.

- The "GPO; Mar. 12" and "$21.45" markings that are stamped on the front of the money order would need to be forged.

- The Treasury's file locator number on the top left front would have to be forged, and with a number that would be "in sequence" for the date and time the money order was cashed.

- The Klein's "Pay to the order" stamp on the back would have to be forged, i.e., someone would have to steal Klein's rubber stamp, and create a perfect duplicate.

- The First National Bank of Chicago would have to be in on it too as the money order was recovered from their records after a 7 hour search

And that's just the money order and order form. There are mountains of other evidence that also would need to be faked.

the photograph of Oswald in his yard with the murder weapons
the autopsy
the x-rays
the wound forensics
the ballistic forensics matching the Carcano to JFK's wounds
the ballistic forensics matching the Carcano to the attempted assassination of General Edwin Walker (Retd)
the ballistic forensics matching the Smith & Wesson .38 handgun to Officer JD Tippett

and then there are witnesses who need to be made to lie

the eye-witnesses who saw the shooter in the 6th floor window
the witnesses on the fifth floor who heard the spent shells landing on the floor above them
the witnesses who saw Oswald bring the long package into the TSBD
the witnesses who saw him leaving the TSBD after the shooting
the witness who saw him shoot officer Tippet, and saw him leaving the scene
the policemen who saw him draw his handgun from his belt and attempt to kill one of them

and all this is just for starters

I would have loved to have seen the CT's 'plotter's Headquarters' with blackboards covered with hundreds of details that needed to be fixed and assignments being given out to do all this. The lists of hundreds if not thousands of people to be told their 'lies'. How you would orchestra this would have been an amazing thing to see.

 

[Hans]

Oops!

Yep years ago maybe it was on Usenet. This same 'discovery' was made.

The solution by a CT:

After the assassination the square was completely rebuilt and the grassy knoll moved - evidence for this - see the bend in the road that wasn't there before and the triple bypass was also constructed so the all would be as it needed to be.

 

[manifesto]

I freely admit to my lack of expertise in this area, so I am quite prepared to be corrected about this, but:

My understanding is that the grassy knoll, site of Manifesto's purported extra shooter, is on the same side of the road as the TBD, i.e. to the right of the motorcade as it went down Elm Street.
If someone shot JFK from there, wouldn't the bullet come out of the back left side of the head, not the right?

[qimg]http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/files/2013/11/Dealey-plaza-annotated.jpg[/qimg]

No. If the bullet from the knoll hits the right temple there is enough angle for it to exit the right side of the back of the head. That said, bullets often deflect (change trajectory) to a considerable degree after hitting the target, in this case human skin, hard cranial bone and brain under high pressure.

 

[manifesto]

I see flames all about you. oh my you are running and not providing evidence again.

LOL

Run burning Manifesto run.

ROFL

Coming from a guy screaming in panic from the inside of a Mighty Church roaring in fire, this is pretty amazing.

The holy denial is strong in this one.

 

[RoboTimbo]

No. If the bullet from the knoll hits the right temple there is enough angle for it to exit the right side of the back of the head. That said, bullets often deflect (change trajectory) to a considerable degree after hitting the target, in this case human skin, hard cranial bone and brain under high pressure.

Obviously, your word can't be taken on this. Ballistics is one of the subjects you have zero knowledge about.

Cite the evidence. Explain it. Argue for its veracity