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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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Of course I am aware of the whole content in the speech.

Then you're admitting to deliberately taking a quote out of context. I was cutting you some slack and assuming you weren't knowledgeable about the full content of the speech and why your quote is out of context.


But you are claiming that something in it take away the gist of my quote? That he means something else with this sentence?

Already answered by Jay. I don't need to tread that ground. The point I made in my initial post was seen by everyone except you apparently.


Is the very word ’secrecy’ not repugnant in a free an open society, according to JFK? Or, what are you whining about this time, Hank?

That's the logical fallacy of a FALSE DICHOTOMY. You do really need to work on removing those from your postings. Of course, if you did that, there wouldn't be much you could say in contradiction, would there?


And on a separate subject, back to an issue you raised previously (the total number of knoll witnesses): Did you ever figure out why your conspiracy source is lying to you about the number of knoll witnesses and why it is falsely counting witnesses who named the TSBD as the source of the shots as knoll witnesses?

You remember, these two witnesses:
James Crawford
Nolan Potter​

Curiously, you never did address this point, although I've reminded you of it numerous times. How credible are your sources that even you - a staunch CT - can't explain away this problem?


And on the subject of not being able to trust conspiracy sources, what's with this quote at the top right of the history-matters.com conspiracy site? https://history-matters.com/

"Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shots come into the car."
— Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman, who rode in the front of the Presidential limousine during JFK's assassination, describing what the Warren Commission would later describe as a single fatal shot.

Did they tell the truth there, or like the quote about secrecy you use as your signature, did they take the quote out of context and be a lot less than honest about Kellerman's actual statement?

Hank
 
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What are you whining about?

It won't do you ;) any good to whine about people asking questions that you ;) can't answer. That's the life a person should expect when they choose CT as their religion.

And we see that you ;) are a typical CTist.

Why did Oswald murder Officer Tippitt and then go on to attempt to murder more officers in the theater with the same gun? Until you ;) CTists can answer that, nothing else you ;) say matters.
 
Where did I say that?



Where did I say that?



For the third time, Kennedy's feelings toward secrecy are not as monochromatic as his first sentence would suggest. That's why he said all the other sentences that explain his feelings in more nuance. That was Hank's entire point.



Your inability to accurately summarize what someone else has written or said.

You seem fond of the word "whine" when a less emotionally laden word would work. A lot of your argument seems to be wrapped up in attaching these unwarranted emotional appendages to what your critics say.

Why is that?
Did he or did he not have the opinion that the very word ’secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society?

Yes or no.
 
My favorite RFK quote is "Don't get mad, get even". Explains Mongoose all the way.
The question was and is if RFK and/or JFK initiated or even sanctioned plans to assassinate Castro. There is nothing in the Operation Mongoose who suggest that was the case.

If you have other information you should provide it with specifics highlighted.

Should I hold my breath?
 
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This 1967 CIA document is like an instruction manual for some of the posters here: http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html

RE: Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report

1. Our Concern. From the day of President Kennedy's assassination on, there has been speculation about the responsibility for his murder. Although this was stemmed for a time by the Warren Commission report, (which appeared at the end of September 1964), various writers have now had time to scan the Commission's published report and documents for new pretexts for questioning, and there has been a new wave of books and articles criticizing the Commission's findings. In most cases the critics have speculated as to the existence of some kind of conspiracy, and often they have implied that the Commission itself was involved. Presumably as a result of the increasing challenge to the Warren Commission's report, a public opinion poll recently indicated that 46% of the American public did not think that Oswald acted alone, while more than half of those polled thought that the Commission had left some questions unresolved. Doubtless polls abroad would show similar, or possibly more adverse results.

2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization. The members of the Warren Commission were naturally chosen for their integrity, experience and prominence. They represented both major parties, and they and their staff were deliberately drawn from all sections of the country. Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society. Moreover, there seems to be an increasing tendency to hint that President Johnson himself, as the one person who might be said to have benefited, was in some way responsible for the assassination.

Innuendo of such seriousness affects not only the individual concerned, but also the whole reputation of the American government. Our organization itself is directly involved: among other facts, we contributed information to the investigation. Conspiracy theories have frequently thrown suspicion on our organization, for example by falsely alleging that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for us. The aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.

3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active [business] addresses are requested:

a. To discuss the publicity problem with [?] and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.

b. To employ propaganda assets to [negate] and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (I) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein's theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher [?] article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane's book is much less convincing that Epstein's and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)

4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:

a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider. The assassination is sometimes compared (e.g., by Joachim Joesten and Bertrand Russell) with the Dreyfus case; however, unlike that case, the attack on the Warren Commission have produced no new evidence, no new culprits have been convincingly identified, and there is no agreement among the critics. (A better parallel, though an imperfect one, might be with the Reichstag fire of 1933, which some competent historians (Fritz Tobias, AJ.P. Taylor, D.C. Watt) now believe was set by Vander Lubbe on his own initiative, without acting for either Nazis or Communists; the Nazis tried to pin the blame on the Communists, but the latter have been more successful in convincing the world that the Nazis were to blame.)

b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent--and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) and less on ballistics, autopsy, and photographic evidence. A close examination of the Commission's records will usually show that the conflicting eyewitness accounts are quoted out of context, or were discarded by the Commission for good and sufficient reason.

c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc. Note that Robert Kennedy, Attorney General at the time and John F. Kennedy's brother, would be the last man to overlook or conceal any conspiracy. And as one reviewer pointed out, Congressman Gerald R. Ford would hardly have held his tongue for the sake of the Democratic administration, and Senator Russell would have had every political interest in exposing any misdeeds on the part of Chief Justice Warren. A conspirator moreover would hardly choose a location for a shooting where so much depended on conditions beyond his control: the route, the speed of the cars, the moving target, the risk that the assassin would be discovered. A group of wealthy conspirators could have arranged much more secure conditions.

d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other. Actually, the make-up of the Commission and its staff was an excellent safeguard against over-commitment to any one theory, or against the illicit transformation of probabilities into certainties.

e. Oswald would not have been any sensible person's choice for a co-conspirator. He was a "loner," mixed up, of questionable reliability and an unknown quantity to any professional intelligence service.

f. As to charges that the Commission's report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.

g. Such vague accusations as that "more than ten people have died mysteriously" can always be explained in some natural way e.g.: the individuals concerned have for the most part died of natural causes; the Commission staff questioned 418 witnesses (the FBI interviewed far more people, conduction 25,000 interviews and re interviews), and in such a large group, a certain number of deaths are to be expected. (When Penn Jones, one of the originators of the "ten mysterious deaths" line, appeared on television, it emerged that two of the deaths on his list were from heart attacks, one from cancer, one was from a head-on collision on a bridge, and one occurred when a driver drifted into a bridge abutment.)

5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission's Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.
 
Then you're admitting to deliberately taking a quote out of context. I was cutting you some slack and assuming you weren't knowledgeable about the full content of the speech and why your quote is out of context.
Almost all quotes are ”taken out of context”. The question is if the quote is representative of the individuals true opinions or not.

You say it is not?

Already answered by Jay. I don't need to tread that ground. The point I made in my initial post was seen by everyone except you apparently.
Somehow the word ”everyone” invoked by almost anyone in this forum in support of an opinion doesn’t have the weight it usually have.

I wonder why.

That's the logical fallacy of a FALSE DICHOTOMY. You do really need to work on removing those from your postings. Of course, if you did that, there wouldn't be much you could say in contradiction, would there?
I know fully well that there are nuances and ambiguities in human language, but I still do not know why you are whining about my quote.

Does it or does it not convey JFK’s true convictions regarding ’secrecy’ in a free and open society?

Yes or no.

And on a separate subject, back to an issue you raised previously (the total number of knoll witnesses): Did you ever figure out why your conspiracy source is lying to you about the number of knoll witnesses and why it is falsely counting witnesses who named the TSBD as the source of the shots as knoll witnesses?

You remember, these two witnesses:
James Crawford
Nolan Potter​

Curiously, you never did address this point, although I've reminded you of it numerous times. How credible are your sources that even you - a staunch CT - can't explain away this problem?
The problem is the vast amount of crap thrown at me from so many of you in this thread.

I’ll try to answer as much that time permits. It is a barrage.

Mr. CRAWFORD. I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse. [6H173]

Mr. BALL. Did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill toward the underpass... and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. [6H173]

”From down the hill toward the underpass” = the direction of the knoll (hill). I’d like to point out how he try to edit his own testimony so it conform to what he has ”been told”.

......

Potter stated that when the President's car had turned west on elm street and had driven past the Texas School Book Depository Building, he heard three loud reports which sounded like firecrackers. He then saw President Kennedy slump over in his car and the Presidential car drive through the underpass. Potter said he recalls seeing smoke in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building rising above the trees. Potter said there were people running in every direction and he noticed a policeman drive his motorcycle up the slope towards the Texas School Book Depository Building. Potter said he could not determine from which direction the shots were fire.

Here I agree, Potter should be in the could not tell-category. At least if based on the FBI-protocoll above. I’ll try to contact Galanor for his reasons to have Potter in the knoll-category. Good find. That makes it 51 knoll-witnesses.

Still, most of the asked witnesses.

Anyone else?

And on the subject of not being able to trust conspiracy sources, what's with this quote at the top right of the history-matters.com conspiracy site? https://history-matters.com/

"Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shots come into the car."
— Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman, who rode in the front of the Presidential limousine during JFK's assassination, describing what the Warren Commission would later describe as a single fatal shot.

Did they tell the truth there, or like the quote about secrecy you use as your signature, did they take the quote out of context and be a lot less than honest about Kellerman's actual statement?

Hank
I’m quite sure that the quote serves to illustrate how much of the spontaneous first impressions quickly was transformed in order to conform to the official narrative.

A flurry of shots being just one shot is a good example if there ever was one.

Good finding.
 
You didn't address a single point in my post. Please try again.
You and Hank are whining about my JFK-quote being ”out of context” and therefore means something else than it says standing alone.

What does it mean if put in context? That JFK did NOT have the opinion that ”the very word ’secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society”?
 
This 1967 CIA document is like an instruction manual for some of the posters here: http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html

I think this is poisoning the well.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well

Description: To commit a preemptive ad hominem attack against an opponent. That is, to prime the audience with adverse information about the opponent from the start, in an attempt to make your claim more acceptable or discount the credibility of your opponent’s claim.

Pointing out the issue with criticism of the Warren Report (like, many of the criticisms are simply quotes taken out of context) is an problem for you exactly why? (other than the fact that you can't rebut the points made, I mean).

And ignoring the issues to post what the CIA said 51 years ago isn't a rebuttal of the issues.

Hank
 
Almost all quotes are ”taken out of context”.

Quotes by CTs, yes. But a quote (or a paraphrase) doesn't have to be taken out of context.


The question is if the quote is representative of the individuals true opinions or not. You say it is not?

As explained to you by two different people already, Kennedy opened with that, then qualified greatly in the following paragraphs.


Somehow the word ”everyone” invoked by almost anyone in this forum in support of an opinion doesn’t have the weight it usually have.

I said everyone except you apparently. There you go taking quotes out of context again.


I wonder why.

Only you can explain why you take quotes out of context.


I know fully well that there are nuances and ambiguities in human language, but I still do not know why you are whining about my quote.

Because the speech he delivered is about newsmen not publishing everything just because it is 'news'. It's about prior restraint in the interest of national security. And taking one sentence out of context doesn't convey that.


Does it or does it not convey JFK’s true convictions regarding ’secrecy’ in a free and open society? Yes or no.

Already asked and answered.



Mr. CRAWFORD. I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse. [6H173]

Mr. BALL. Did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions?
Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill toward the underpass... and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. [6H173]

”From down the hill toward the underpass” = the direction of the knoll (hill). I’d like to point out how he try to edit his own testimony so it conform to what he has ”been told”.

Quote out of context. He didn't change his mind later. He changed it during the shooting as he honed in on the sounds. By the time of the third shot, he had isolated the shots as coming from the Depository, and said that at the time to a co-worker: "If those were shots, they came from that building" [pointing to the Depository]. He also explained why he was confused by the first sound, because of the echo off the overpass. You ignore Crawford's own testimony of what he heard and saw, and substitute your own interpretations.

He was there, you were not.


Potter stated that when the President's car had turned west on elm street and had driven past the Texas School Book Depository Building, he heard three loud reports which sounded like firecrackers. He then saw President Kennedy slump over in his car and the Presidential car drive through the underpass. Potter said he recalls seeing smoke in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building rising above the trees. Potter said there were people running in every direction and he noticed a policeman drive his motorcycle up the slope towards the Texas School Book Depository Building. Potter said he could not determine from which direction the shots were fire.

Here I agree, Potter should be in the could not tell-category. At least if based on the FBI-protocoll above. I’ll try to contact Galanor for his reasons to have Potter in the knoll-category. Good find. That makes it 51 knoll-witnesses.

Wait, what? It was claimed that the men on the overpass saw smoke in front of the knoll, so that makes them knoll witnesses. Here we have a witness saying he saw smoke rising above the trees in front of the Depository, and he's not a Depository witness?

Double-standard much?


I’m quite sure that the quote serves to illustrate how much of the spontaneous first impressions quickly was transformed in order to conform to the official narrative.

Again, you don't get to overlay your interpretation of the witness statements and change their meaning. He testified to seeing smoke in front of the TSBD. If that makes him not a TSBD witness, then the witnesses who said they saw smoke in front of the knoll shouldn't be counted as knoll witnesses - unless you're utilizing a double-standard.


A flurry of shots being just one shot is a good example if there ever was one. Good finding.

So you never read his testimony in full and have no clue how they are quoting out of context. Interesting.

Hank
 
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You and Hank are whining...

More hyperbole, I see. It does not make you seem more right.

What does it mean if put in context? That JFK did NOT have the opinion that ”the very word ’secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society”?

My argument is that Kennedy's attitude toward secrecy as expressed in his speech is not the single-minded concept that would be gleaned from its first sentence alone. Your only rebuttal is to keep hammering that one sentence and insist upon an unsophisticated interpretation of it. You still have not addressed a single point of my argument except to double-down on your string of false dichotomies.

Further, I brought up these points yesterday which are at least more to the topic as they deal with the assassination while Kennedy's speech, strictly speaking, does not. A number of people asked if you would please address them, which you have not yet done. Do you ever intend to?
 
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I think this is poisoning the well.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well

Description: To commit a preemptive ad hominem attack against an opponent. That is, to prime the audience with adverse information about the opponent from the start, in an attempt to make your claim more acceptable or discount the credibility of your opponent’s claim.

Pointing out the issue with criticism of the Warren Report (like, many of the criticisms are simply quotes taken out of context) is an problem for you exactly why? (other than the fact that you can't rebut the points made, I mean).

And ignoring the issues to post what the CIA said 51 years ago isn't a rebuttal of the issues.

Hank
To point out similarities between some of the participants in this thread, their arguments, methods and obvious MO, with that of one of the main suspects in the assassination of JFK, the terror organization CIA, is not ad hominem. It is informative.

Important to highlight and have in mind for everyone interested in the discussion. Illuminating.

That said, I fully understand why you are whining about it.
 
Are your reading skills so poor you can't understand the following sentences of the speech?
I fully understand the whole content of the speech, yes. I do NOT understand why you are whining about it being ”out of context” and therefore convey something else when ”in context”.

I have asked a multiple of times if the ”context” says that JFK was NOT of the opinion that ”the very word ’secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society”, but are still waiting for an answer.

Yes, I know that the speech was about journalists and their responsibility towards the public good and the security of their country, to act with caution and restraint when these factors were in jeopardy. To shoulder their responsibilty as journalists and newsmen towards the public good, as responsible citizens.

Does this in any way mitigate the essence of the quote I have in my signature?

How?
 
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