Brexit: Now What? Part IV

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ceptimus said:
After the winning party in a general election has promised a referendum as part of its manifesto - just like last time.
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That's the key is it? Does it matter which party it is? Does it matter if they get sole majority or are part of a coalition? Are there any other 'outs'?
 
And then there's the Irish border. Why did nobody mention that during the Brexit referendum?

Referring to the Troubles, when many B-roads spanning the border were closed and key routes blocked by militarised checkpoints, Mark Lindsay said: “We are painfully aware that even when we had 13,500 officers, supported by 26,000 soldiers, it proved a daily challenge to police the border.


“So, if we were stretched in the 70s, 80s and 90s, is it not fair to say that we will be well and truly incapable of performing the task with officer numbers of 6,621, or a sixth of what we had then?”

“By this time next year – despite talk of a two-year transition period – the border will assume greater importance. We don’t possess the numbers, the security apparatus or specialist resources for increased counter-terrorist search and support duties along the border.”
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...irish-police-funds-recruitment-protect-border

Oh dear. Why did nobody think of that?

Britain can shortly be prepared to send its army back into Northern Ireland. Project fear and all that.....
 
3point14 said:
So that's Chris the Maltese Kiwi, Farrage with his German Children and now Lawson. And Boris, who just wants a plane.


Why is just flat out not doing it no longer part of the discussion?
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Don't forget Rees-Mogg advising his clients to invest in Europe and take their money out of the UK. Just like he is doing.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Don't forget Rees-Mogg advising his clients to invest in Europe and take their money out of the UK. Just like he is doing.
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I was convinced at the time and am more convinced now that almost none of them thought that leave would win. It's just such a mental course of action that, the leave campaign believed, not enough people would fall for it. They wanted just enough people to fall for it so that they could keep agitating, keep blaming Europe and generally carry on as before.

I think the vote to leave was a shock to the establishment. This is the result.
 
3point14 said:
So that's Chris the Maltese Kiwi, Farrage with his German Children and now Lawson. And Boris, who just wants a plane.


Why is just flat out not doing it no longer part of the discussion?
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Because its only the working class oiks who will have to send their children over to take back control of Britain's borders. And when they come home in coffins it won't affect the upper class Tories who are in control of Brexit one iota.
 
Strawberry said:
Because its only the working class oiks who will have to send their children over to take back control of Britain's borders. And when they come home in coffins it won't affect the upper class Tories who are in control of Brexit one iota.
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Perhaps.
But you don't see mass demonstrations either.

You can say the upper class tories won't be affected and you might even be right. But will the rest do something or just shrug and tell themselves that the uppers won't listen anyway?

Because that is what I'm missing here.
The vote was close. Nobody will deny that. I can imagine if things would look like they would work out that the voters who lost might say that maybe they were wrong.

But with all the bad news coming and coming? I would expect more protestations. Something.
But there is nothing. Not from where I sit and can see.
Is nobody on the losing side active in seeing their concerns get looked after as well?
 
Remember when Theresa May said the government was to recruit an extra 5,000 staff so HMRC could cope with Brexit?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hmrc-has-lost-2-000-staff-since-brexit-referendum-38w3mcjkd

HMRC has lost 2,000 staff since Brexit referendum

The government department responsible for Britain’s smooth departure from the customs union after Brexit is employing 2,000 fewer staff than on the day of the EU referendum.

The fall in HM Revenue & Customs’ staff headcount, revealed in the Commons by a Treasury minister last week, will intensify concerns on the Conservative back benches about Britain’s preparations to implement a new customs regime"
 
erwinl said:
Perhaps.
But you don't see mass demonstrations either.
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Part of the problem is that it's difficult to know what to demonstrate against on the grounds that we haven't the first idea about what the post-Brexit UK will look like.

If we knew for definite that there would be an immediate loss of right of residence for EU citizens then the demonstration could focus on that, or that we knew what the post-Brexit trade situation would be (and associated impact on jobs) then the TUC could organise a protest on that, or erosion of civil rights or any of a myriad of things.
 
The Don said:
Part of the problem is that it's difficult to know what to demonstrate against on the grounds that we haven't the first idea about what the post-Brexit UK will look like.

If we knew for definite that there would be an immediate loss of right of residence for EU citizens then the demonstration could focus on that, or that we knew what the post-Brexit trade situation would be (and associated impact on jobs) then the TUC could organise a protest on that, or erosion of civil rights or any of a myriad of things.
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You have a point. Makes me wonder if the lack of any clear goals or proposals isn't part of some plan to deny any sort of rallying point to the opposition.

Of course, I'm probably giving too much credit.
 
Hellbound said:
You have a point. Makes me wonder if the lack of any clear goals or proposals isn't part of some plan to deny any sort of rallying point to the opposition.

Of course, I'm probably giving too much credit.
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I've pondered this too and swung back and forth. At the moment I'm discounting that it's a canny ploy because:

  • When the result came in, the Leave campaign looked like a dog that caught a car. IMO it's entirely feasible that there was no plan because they felt there was no need for a plan.
  • A major plank of the Leave campaign was "protest". IMO the protesters expect everything to be sorted out by the Remainers, heck ceptimus has said as much on more than one occasion - that the Remain campaign should have developed detailed exit plans
  • The Leave campaign was an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. The Brexit envisaged by left-wingers who viewed the EU as some capitalist cabal would have been quite different to the view of Brexit that someone like Rees-Mogg would have had and different again from the one that James Dyson may have had in mind
  • Everything else to do with Brexit so far has been shambolic. To get one thing so spectacularly right doesn't seem reasonable to me
 
The Don said:
Part of the problem is that it's difficult to know what to demonstrate against on the grounds that we haven't the first idea about what the post-Brexit UK will look like.

If we knew for definite that there would be an immediate loss of right of residence for EU citizens then the demonstration could focus on that, or that we knew what the post-Brexit trade situation would be (and associated impact on jobs) then the TUC could organise a protest on that, or erosion of civil rights or any of a myriad of things.
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I understand.

But lack of clarity is one point you could protest against. It looks from this place that the entire population is resigned to the fait accompli that will be presented as the end result of this whole process.

What is needed for a good political climate is a good dialogue between parties.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. And it is the task of the losing party to take care their positions are listened to.
And if you truly believe that the other side is trampling on too many important issues you raise your voice more.
And if the politicians don't do that, then that task falls to the population itself.


Just like in the 80's here in the Netherlands during the demonstrations against nuclear weapons. In my lifetime perhaps the most divisive subject there was (my wife and I being on opposite sides on this one) in this country.
The demonstrations were huge. In the end the protestors didn't win, but they were listened to and the end result did take their position in.

But. In the end Brexit is not my country.
I'm just amazed, considering the split there was.
 
The Don said:
I've pondered this too and swung back and forth. At the moment I'm discounting that it's a canny ploy because:

  • When the result came in, the Leave campaign looked like a dog that caught a car. IMO it's entirely feasible that there was no plan because they felt there was no need for a plan.
  • A major plank of the Leave campaign was "protest". IMO the protesters expect everything to be sorted out by the Remainers, heck ceptimus has said as much on more than one occasion - that the Remain campaign should have developed detailed exit plans
  • The Leave campaign was an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. The Brexit envisaged by left-wingers who viewed the EU as some capitalist cabal would have been quite different to the view of Brexit that someone like Rees-Mogg would have had and different again from the one that James Dyson may have had in mind
  • Everything else to do with Brexit so far has been shambolic. To get one thing so spectacularly right doesn't seem reasonable to me
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Possible.
But why give that concession if you don't agree with it.
'Ok. You win. Don't care if you expected to win or not. You still did win. Now get to work for all of us!'

Something like that.
 
erwinl said:
But. In the end Brexit is not my country.
I'm just amazed, considering the split there was.
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Same here, really. My country has enough problems of it's own, right now. Not meaning to make light of anyone's issues, but reading this thread is almost like a vacation from the problems we have over here :(. As a co-worker of mine said, the tree of liberty is beginning to look mighty parched.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Remember when Theresa May said the government was to recruit an extra 5,000 staff so HMRC could cope with Brexit?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hmrc-has-lost-2-000-staff-since-brexit-referendum-38w3mcjkd

HMRC has lost 2,000 staff since Brexit referendum

The government department responsible for Britain’s smooth departure from the customs union after Brexit is employing 2,000 fewer staff than on the day of the EU referendum.

The fall in HM Revenue & Customs’ staff headcount, revealed in the Commons by a Treasury minister last week, will intensify concerns on the Conservative back benches about Britain’s preparations to implement a new customs regime"
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That just shows what great savings they've been able to make!
 
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