Abortion Referendum

[Vixen]

And? The physicians there have to comply with the same rules as someone's GP and has to be convinced that the person asking euthanasia has a consistent, well-informed wish to end their life.


No, euthanasia is performed on the wish of the person themselves. Your attempt to equate an adult person with a fetus, a mere clump of cells that has not grown a nervous system let alone own consciousness, is derisible.

Anyone who ever lived was a 'mere clump of cells' once.

Oh well, as long as all the foetuses being disposed of are of the lower unwashed masses, who would be a burden on the welfare state, anyway, we needn't give it any further thought. Unless, of course, there'll be a shortage of labour to take care of the future ageing population or governments need some cannon fodder should we go to war again.

 

[Vixen]

How many of the kids women who wanted to abort but couldn't are you bringing up?

I am sure previous generations had their ways and means. Victorian families were typically twelve children or more. My grandmother was one of twelve, she herself had seven. People expected to marry and have children. If you were poor you worked hard to provide for your family, as best you could.

My parents were married and I was planned.

What is the problem of people planning their lives properly and not expecting others to take over?

Any thought for the doctors and nurses who have to put in long man hours terminating all the unwanted pregnancies because wanton irresponsible people could not be bothered to 'put something on the end of it', yet the state is blamed for not providing a service on demand.

I agree there should be an alternative to back street methods, but I don't agree with the argument that somehow this is 'empowering to wimmin'.

 

[Vixen]

Pathetic. Are you actually so incapable of reasoned, rational, argument that you have to resort to crap like this?

I ask (again); To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?

I am not a doctor, I cannot tell. My response was to Lothian who claimed foetuses were 'parasites'.

 

[Vixen]

No. Actually infant mortality killed many of them and frequently women died in pregnancy and childbirth too. I see you're unaware of these historical facts; traditionally children weren't named for several months (or even 1-2 years) after birth specifically because they were likely to die (~25% chance of dying before one year) and weren't really considered 'persons'.
You'll find all this well documented in historical researches; if you can be bothered to actually look. Try Infant Mortality and Child-Naming.

Another fascinating historical fact is that for most of recorded history a fetus wasn't considered a person until it had 'quickened'. For example Pope Gregory XIV declared that the fetus wasn't 'quickened' until 166 days after conception. Ensoulment at conception only became church doctrine in 1869.

I am very well aware of them. Infant mortality was nothing to do with the lack of legal abortion. I had a great aunt who died alone in the sauna giving birth to a child who also died. There is no doubt lots of rumpy pumpy went on and tragic mistakes were made, with illegitimate children leading a life of hell, unable to inherit, hidden away in orphanages or adopted out. It was all very hush-hush.

In my family, it is custom to not tell people the name of your new baby until it has been christened. It'll have a nickname. For example, a recent arrival was known as 'Henkka', until he was christened as 'Henry'.

So am I ignorant about the issues? I don't think so.

 

[Lothian]

That's exactly what Hitler called people he wanted rid of. 'Parasites', 'vermin', 'rats'. Objectify them first, as less than human, then exterminate.

At least your stance is more honest than an appeal to fancy slogans such as 'Women's right to choose'. Just get at'em.


Seeing as you despise children and their right to life, you might be better off just getting sterilised from the get go?

I used the term parasite correctly not at a form of abuse.

Parasite: an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

I don't despise children, quite the opposite. I want all children to be brought up in an environment where they are wanted, loved and cared for.

Your "right to life" phraseology mirrors my view. If the fetus can survive on its own outside the mother it should be given that right. If it is dependant on the mother keeping it in her body then the rights and wishes of the mother take precedence. The fetus does not have its own life. It's existence is as part of the mother. Only when it can survive independently does its life begin imo.

The vote in Ireland was very interesting as it is more evidence that the church is losing its power there.
People rejected the church's 'rights to life' arguments and saw through that and to the fact that the church was insisting on babies being carried to term by single mothers so that they could sell those babies to (often foreign) adopters or stick them in homes to be abused by priests.

 

[fuelair]

Or had a back-ally abortion.

Or they ended up in a Magdalene laundry.

Your view of the "golden olden days" is very one-sided.

Vixen might like to research Magdalene laundries to see why I would have loved to see all the nuns, taken out and beaten thoroughly in front of the girls they did it to and the children they stole to give to "good catholics" aka slime ridden kidnappers.

 

[The Don]

And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.

I say prosecute God..... if you can find her and put her in the dock

 

[Lothian]

And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.

I say prosecute God..... if you can find her and put her in the dock

I think it is a little higher around 80%. I often wonder why rather than "praying" for women going into clinics, Christian protesters don't pray to god and ask him to stop killing so many babies.

 

[The Don]

I think it is a little higher around 80%. I often wonder why rather than "praying" for women going into clinics, Christian protesters don't pray to god and ask him to stop killing so many babies.

I suppose because God is infallible and so whatever percentage are spontaneously aborted are part of Gods plan and we mere mortals should not question it.......

 

[Vixen]

Vixen might like to research Magdalene laundries to see why I would have loved to see all the nuns, taken out and beaten thoroughly in front of the girls they did it to and the children they stole to give to "good catholics" aka slime ridden kidnappers.

I saw the film. (Or, 'filim', as they say in Ireland.)

 

[Lothian]

I suppose because God is infallible and so whatever percentage are spontaneously aborted are part of Gods plan and we mere mortals should not question it.......

Doh! So obvious once it has been explained.

 

[Darat]

...snipo...

Of course there should be medical discretion in cases such as these.

According to your previous posts this can only make sense and not be hypocritical if you believe in euthanasia.

 

[Vixen]

Whilst waiting for the raging storm outside to abate, before I can go out, I've had a great idea for a film script.

A mad politician who plans to take over the government hatches a plot in collaboration with a mad scientist, who is also a doctor.

This doctor manage to persuade all the hospitals throughout the land to donate aborted foetuses to an establishment run by him and aforesaid mad politician.


It comes to pass, almost everyone avails themselves of abortion on demand, as the economy is harsh, few jobs, little housing and high food and utility prices.

Over time, the ageing population outnumbers the young by 70:30.

One day, an edict is sent to all members of this ageing population who ever had an abortion to attend Wembley Stadium and other large stadia across the country.

They all turn out, partly out of curiosity and because of the threat of a fine, if they do not.

The arrivals take their seats and are intrigued to see half the seats are empty.

The mystery is unveiled as a troupe of people aged from eighteen up to forty, troop out to the sound of fanfare and take their seats.

The mad politician and his scientist henchman takes his position on the podium. Via a tannoy and large screens, he announces:

'Ladies and Gentlemen, meet all the foetuses you aborted! Now rescued and turned into living people! If you look int he programme you will see which one was yours.'

<fx scramble and rustling of programmes as people look up their names. Close ups of the looks of horror, wonder and bewilderment cross their faces>

'Ladies and Gentlemen, you are invited to assemble on the pitch, in an orderly manner.'

<fx, people politely make their way to the pitch>

'Now, Ladies and Gentlement, the people remaining in the stands are your aborted children. They will now abort you in return. You are ageing and useless, a burden on the state. Taxpayers money go towards your pensions and healthcare. Well time is up!'

<fx a noticeable hubbub can be heard as people look around them confused>

'Now Ladies and Gentlemen, it is your turn to be be aborted. Goodbye, parasites!'

<fx a cheer goes up in the stands as the ground opens and swallows up the ex-parents>

[ends]

 

[Darat]

And what about spontaneous abortions? About two-thirds of pregnancies end that way.

I was trying to be charitable and taking the view that TBD would accept that spontaneous abortions weren't intentful so it wouldn't be murder just manslaughter. But of course what if the woman was doing any of the things we know can lead to an increase in spontaneous abortions? Should we then treat them as murder?

 

[Vixen]

I was trying to be charitable and taking the view that TBD would accept that spontaneous abortions weren't intentful so it wouldn't be murder just manslaughter. But of course what if the woman was doing any of the things we know can lead to an increase in spontaneous abortions? Should we then treat them as murder?

That's true of any crime. If you don't get caught, you get away with it.

 

[Strawberry]

Vixen might like to research Magdalene laundries to see why I would have loved to see all the nuns, taken out and beaten thoroughly in front of the girls they did it to and the children they stole to give to "good catholics" aka slime ridden kidnappers.

I have to admit I'm a bit suspicious of some of the stories about Magdalene laundries. I'm sure they were miserable places, but there's a definite whiff of Michelle Remembers about some of those who claim to have been in one.

 

[Darat]

I saw the film. (Or, 'filim', as they say in Ireland.)

Wow - what research!

 

[Darat]

That's true of any crime. If you don't get caught, you get away with it.

Non sequitur.

 

[Ian Osborne]

If ones view is that abortion in all cases and all circumstances is murder then you would also support a massive increase in prosecutions for women in regards to such crimes as manslaughter and assault?

There are already laws on Child Destruction, which involves ending a viable late-term pregnancy. There seems no clear line between when the foetus becomes a child, or at least no clear rationale for the maximum term at which an abortion is allowed.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ironic, because the only part of Ireland where abortion is now illegal is the part where everybody still is a subject of HM the Queen.

Did this change a single law? Can people now treat women with cervical cancer if they get pregnant or do the new laws have to be written?