Abortion Referendum

[angrysoba]

It's a minor point, but nobody is any country is a "subject" of HM the Queen.

Actually, my mother’s British passport says she is a British subject. Mine says I am a citizen.

 

[Klimax]

Especially given that a majority of the actual voters in Norn Iron support liberalising the abortion laws there.
It's the DUP's control of UKGov that's the obstruction.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom#Devolution, it is now fully under NI parliament, no longer UK Parliament/government.

 

[catsmate]

I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall

It's a step in the path to treating women as people, not just ambulatory incubators. People with control of their bodies.

 

[angrysoba]

I accept there are women who want to abort an unwanted pregnancy. What I don't understand is why everybody is so joyous about the 'yes' vote. Even the reporter on BBC was bouncing around as though it was the Berlin Wall coming down.

Hopefully it represents a wall going up separating church from state.

 

[mikado]

It's a step in the path to treating women as people, not just ambulatory incubators. People with control of their bodies.

Yes. That's dangerous thinking right there....

 

[Vixen]

Let’s say in cases where it is forced on women - rape - and the foetus has yet to develop a central nervous system. Whose rights do you favour? The foetus? It has no brain yet! The father? Do you think the rapist should get a say? The government? The Catholic Church? The doctor? I literally want you to explain whose rights should trump those of the woman who has been raped and explain why.

OK, so let's look at rape.

(a) who calls this? Does a woman have to prove it was rape, because it can take over a year for a case to come to court, and then only something like 2% of rape complaints end in a conviction.

(b) does this include rape by a husband? Likewise, how does a woman prove rape, given the length of time it takes to charge and convict, if the man pleads not guilty.

(c) why wait until a pregnancy test shows pregnancy? If the 'morning after pill' is not available, then there is nothing to stop a woman asking for a 'scrape' (the lining of the womb scraped)employed to solve a whole range gynaecological problems?

(d) what percentage of pregnancies are due to rape?

(e) do you believe that people conceived of rape (whether husband and wife, date rape or stranger rape) are lesser citizens than 'wanted' babies?

Bear in mind, the question posed was, whose rights was the other poster referring to, when he or she said that everybodys' rights are important and have to be balanced, therefore he or she was joyous at the 'yes' vote.

 

[Vixen]

My cousin got pregnant in the 1990s. She was married and was planning a family. However, the foetus had a medical condition (can't remember the details, it's not important) which meant that if it survived to full term, it would be born and would die within hours. There was 0% chance of the baby being viable.

Legally there was nothing she could do to terminate the pregnancy. She could have regular scans to see if the foetus was still alive and could have had it removed if it was dead, but the foetus survived full term. For some reason (don't know her personal situation, doesn't really matter) she chose not to travel abroad to have an abortion but instead carried the foetus to term, and it died almost immediately, as expected.

"Joy" is not the emotion women in her situation would feel if they could legally and safely terminate their pregnancies.

What a situation. To be forced to carry a non-viable foetus to term because some **********-up law considers it to be a full human being with full rights. Yet people on these forums seem to think there's something wrong with remove the extreme legal barriers that would allow a woman to legally and safely terminate the pregnancy in those kind of situations.

If you want another example, look up the "X case" that happened in Ireland during the 1990s, where a 14 year old girl who got pregnant as the result of rape, and had reported felling suicidal because of her situation, but when the police learned that she intended to travel to England to have an abortion, they prevented her from doing so. The situation was ludicrous and tragic and the result of the 8th amendment we have just voted to remove from the constitution.

These are the kind of tragic situations that women are forced to put up with precisely because we have preposterously conservative and extremist laws regarding abortion, because of what is enshrined in our constitution. Removing the 8th amendment will allow for terminating pregnancy to be sensibly legislated for.

I'm shaking my head at yours and others incoherent and rather silly objections to what has been done here in Ireland.

The vast majority of congenitally deformed foetuses are spontaneously miscarried.

I presume that in your cousin's case, the deformity only became apparent once the pregnancy was quite advanced. In those cases, even if an abortion is carried out, there is still the heartbreak of having to to through an induced delivery, anyway.

There seems to be this idea that somehow the tragedy of a baby suffering from a congenital condition is the fault of 'sexism' which can be solved by abortion on demand.

Truth is, your cousin's situation was always going to be a very sad one.

I am not arguing against a change in the amendment per se, I question whether people have given much thought to the slogans bandied about.

 

[catsmate]

I was going by Repeal's rhetoric of Abortion being the ultimate expression of feminine empowerment and it being the golden ticket to gender equality.

Citation required.

Except 90s Russia had an abortion rate to the point that it was an immediate first resort yet it didn't do much for women.

And this has what exactly to do with the 36A referendum?

Hell, I would go so far as to say the demographic collapse in that time was a significant contributing factor to Putin's rise to power.

So you can provide supporting evidence for this claim too.

 

[catsmate]

Whilst it might save the NHS vast sums of money from the hordes of abortion seekers coming over to England for their operations and plus, the planet is overpopulated,

Irrelevant nonsense.

I am not sure people have even thought the issue through.
'Yes' seems to be the trendy vote.

Unlike apparently you many people are able to come to rational, reasoned, conclusions by examining the evidence and think for themselves.

 

[catsmate]

As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?
To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?

Sometimes yes. Or are you one of those idiots who believe that rape never causes pregnancy too?

 

[catsmate]

Actually, my mother’s British passport says she is a British subject. Mine says I am a citizen.

Don't worry, I'm sure Brexit will fix that.

 

[catsmate]

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom#Devolution, it is now fully under NI parliament, no longer UK Parliament/government.

Except there is no NI government. Interestingly there's some suggestions in the UK to hold a referendum in NI too. However May and co are unlikely to demonstrate the necessary moral courage.

 

[catsmate]

Yes. That's dangerous thinking right there....

Quite revolutionary back in '83, somewhat less so now.

 

[SusanB-M1]

As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?

Or are only highly vocal women who want, "a woman's right to choose" the only voices we should listen to?

That slogan in itself implies a doctor is being 'sexist' if an abortion is refused, because of the law or because of personal ethics, and that the woman's predicament is because of this dreadful 'sexist' society.

But hang on, what is the premise based on? Is a pregnancy really forced on women?

Perhaps you would prefer to see women resorting to unsafe, positively dangerous procedures to abort an unwanted foetus?

 

[Vixen]

As a matter of interest, do the "rights of others" include the rights of the unborn foetus, or the father of it?
To what extent can the continuation of a pregnancy endanger a woman's life before a medical termination is allowed, in your opinion?
An extra 10%? 25%? 50%? 100%? 200%? 400%? 800%?


Sometimes yes. Or are you one of those idiots who believe that rape never causes pregnancy too?

He is an idiot.

However, according to figures there were only 655 rape cases in Ireland in 2017:

According to 2017 crime data, released by the Central Statistics Office today, there were 655 instances of rape recorded by the gardaí last year.

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

US statistics (as per your link) shows 5% result in pregnancy.

That would be 32 of those raped women would be pregnant as a result.

So, using 'rape' as the main reason the law should be changed is merely an appeal to people's base emotions. The population of Ireland is 4.78m.

So all the brouhaha about rape is largely a distraction designed to browbeat people.

 

[catsmate]

OK, so let's look at rape.

Given your history I'm sure this will be a pile of straw but why not.

(a) who calls this? Does a woman have to prove it was rape, because it can take over a year for a case to come to court, and then only something like 2% of rape complaints end in a conviction.

The woman makes a declaration and that's accepted.

(b) does this include rape by a husband?

Of course.

Likewise, how does a woman prove rape, given the length of time it takes to charge and convict, if the man pleads not guilty.

Her statement should suffice.

(c) why wait until a pregnancy test shows pregnancy? If the 'morning after pill' is not available, then there is nothing to stop a woman asking for a 'scrape' (the lining of the womb scraped)employed to solve a whole range gynaecological problems?

OK

(d) what percentage of pregnancies are due to rape?

Well around 6% of rapes end in pregnancy, so given around 1,200 rapes pa in Ireland (actually far more) that's around seventy.

(e) do you believe that people conceived of rape (whether husband and wife, date rape or stranger rape) are lesser citizens than 'wanted' babies?

An irrelevant strawman. What's important is the physical and psychological damage to the woman whom you're so enthusiastic about forcing to carry her rapist's child.

Bear in mind, the question posed was, whose rights was the other poster referring to, when he or she said that everybodys' rights are important and have to be balanced, therefore he or she was joyous at the 'yes' vote.

Is there a point buried in that waffle?

 

[catsmate]

The vast majority of congenitally deformed foetuses are spontaneously miscarried.

So? Many aren't.
You may be fine with risking the physical and psychological safety of woman to carry unviable fetuses to term but others are more caring and compassionate.

 

[catsmate]

He is an idiot.

However, according to figures there were only 655 rape cases in Ireland in 2017:

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

US statistics (as per your link) shows 5% result in pregnancy.

That would be 32 of those raped women would be pregnant as a result.

So, using 'rape' as the main reason the law should be changed is merely an appeal to people's base emotions. The population of Ireland is 4.78m.

So all the brouhaha about rape is largely a distraction designed to browbeat people.

The RCC figures are notably higher. And forcing thirty women to risk their health each year is unacceptable.

 

[Vixen]

Perhaps you would prefer to see women resorting to unsafe, positively dangerous procedures to abort an unwanted foetus?

Certainly not.

I am questioning people's mindless support of abortion on demand. If they haven't given it much thought, then they are just being trendy.

 

[Vixen]

Given your history I'm sure this will be a pile of straw but why not.


The woman makes a declaration and that's accepted.


Of course.


Her statement should suffice.


OK


Well around 6% of rapes end in pregnancy, so given around 1,200 rapes pa in Ireland (actually far more) that's around seventy.


An irrelevant strawman. What's important is the physical and psychological damage to the woman whom you're so enthusiastic about forcing to carry her rapist's child.


Is there a point buried in that waffle?

I get that people strongly believe in abortion on demand. However, I am sceptical of some of the reasoning. People speak of being 'joyous', for example.

Obviously, it should be available for health reasons (including psychological health) as it is a medical procedure.