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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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52 witnesses said the position/direction of the knoll.

James Crawford said the Depository was the source of the shots at the time of, or just after, the final shot. He is counted as a knoll witnesses.

Nolan Potter said he saw smoke rising above the trees in front of the Depository. He is counted as a knoll witness.

Your website isn't accurately counting knoll and Depository witnesses.

Numerous other witnesses said the railroad yards, which as you noted, runs all the way to New Orleans (and from the north to the south knoll and beyond). Your website is assuming what it needs to prove in many cases, and outright ignoring the testimony in others.

The 52 count is inflated. Way inflated.

Hank
 
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I wrote this earlier.
First the head stops, in an instance. Second, the head changes direction/accelerates. Third, the head is traveling. Fourth, the head stops and comes to rest. All this is happening in between Z312 and Z321.​

Still unclear?

Yes. Your claim is that the head stops in Z312. That implies it was moving in frame Z311. But we don't see that.

The head is stable in a comparison between Z311 and Z312.
The head moves forward about 2-3 inches between Z312 and Z313.
The head starts to reverse its motion between Z313 and Z314.
The head is accelerating backward between Z313 and Z317.

The latter implies a force acting on the body over that time to cause the acceleration, not a one-time transfer of kinetic energy. Newton determined that. He's another physicist, but not a Nobel Prize winning one (they didn't award one at the time).
 
As usual with CTs, you have selectively quoted only the part of the report you THINK supports your case, in this case, you have only quoted part of the abstract. I'll bet you haven't even read the actual report.

Now, lets quote the WHOLE section of the abstract, with all the information you wilfully and dishonestly cut out because it refuted your claim.

"A steel cylinder was allowed to fall freely though a hollow pipe into a pool of blood, thus creating the spatter. An infrared beam at the exit of the pipe activated two strobe lights set to fire at preselected intervals as the cylinder passed through it. The separate strobes provided a double image which was captured on film as the blood left the impact site. The distance between the two images was then measured. The photographs included a 15-centimeter rule which provided a scale for making the measurement. Both human and ovine blood were tested with no significant difference in results. Tests showed that the blood from the point of impact traveled at 5.57 m/sec., 3.59 times faster than the velocity of the impacting object. 6 figures, 2 tables"

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=147268

So the exit velocity in that test was 5.57 m/sec from an impact velocity of 1.55 m/s

Did it occur to you, in even the slightest degree, to think through the implications of what you posted, or were you in such a hurry to score internet points that you forgot to really think about it?

If you were to apply the little bit of knowledge you think you have gained, to a bullet impact of 2300 fps, then the splatter would need to be travelling at over 8257 fps... that is 7.5x the speed of sound... this is clearly impossible

If you refer it back to Z313, all the spatter would have disappeared from the frame by Z314... at 1/18th of a second frame rate, by Z314 all the spatter would be 459 feet away.
If you read the posts I was responding to (relevant context) they claim that blood spatter can’t travel faster than the incoming projectile. Well, consider those claims disproven.

I do not claim that the back spatter seen in the Z-film is traveling four times faster than the incoming bullet, but I do claim that it is traveling extremely fast and begin to do so aproximately 0.000400 seconds after the bullet hit the head.

Ergo. The visible back spatter seen in Z313 is instant and not a delayed effect from a bullet from the back hitting the head in Z312.
 
So, what caused the violent thrust back and to the left?

1. Alvarez jet recoil is proven a fraud.

2. Decerebrate reflexes are way to slow and do not explain the sum of JFK’s movement anyway.

3. The limo was decelerating during the relevant time sequence, so the force was opposite the backward headsnap.

So, what caused it? Magic?

The "Jet Effect" is confirmed, which you'd know if you read this:

https://www.heliyon.com/article/e00603

You wanted science, here's science that says you're wrong.;)
 
Since a certain poster is married to a misidentification of LHO's Carcano and wishes to ignore the fact that cops are subject to attacks of dumb-ass to the head when handling or identifying firearms, here's a bit of recent video evidence of LEO firearm ignorance.



This is from a program called Live PD. I first became aware of this clip when it was brought to my attention by a friend that watches the program.

He provided me with a copy from his DVR because he wanted to know if the officer featured in the segment knew what he was talking about wrt a firearm seized during a traffic stop - he didn't. Go to 1:18. The officer is acting in accordance with pretty much sop everywhere in removing the vehicle occupants one by one, then a firearm is discovered at 1:58. Another officer present properly identifies the general type of piece as "a *********** AK" - it's a US built AK type pistol. The featured officer examines the piece. The safety is on, a 40 round magazine is inserted in the weapon. He makes no effort to remove the magazine to determine if the weapon was loaded or to "clear" (unload) the piece if it was.

He gets back into his unit and makes a comment about the "assault weapon" discovered during the search and the fact that one of the vehicle occupants was a convicted felon and as a prohibited person would be subject to returning to prison.

At 2:49, while removing a female occupant from the vehicle he states that she has to excuse him from being upset as she was sitting on "a machinegun."

At approximately 3:31, the featured officer makes a statement about being "outgunned" if the stop went bad and he'd have to rely on his Glock .40 until he could get to his AR-15. He also identifies the weapon involved as an "SKS assault rifle."

The officer's actions in dealing with the suspects was professional - he knows his police work.

What he absolutely doesn't know about - sop for run-of-the-mill street officers - is how to properly and safely handle and identify a weapon that isn't in his department's inventory. First up, he should have determined if the piece was loaded. He failed to do so. Second, his identification of the piece as a "machinegun" was simple boilerplate language and was incorrect. Had he been trained up, a simple visual inspection would have revealed that the piece wasn't originally manufactured or had been re-manufactured into an actual full-auto AK. I was able to stop the video and observe that there was no sear pin for the auto sear. No sear pin, no full auto (there are half-assed possibilities of AK conversion that leave the piece dangerous to both target and shooter, but if you don't clear the piece and pull the top cover you'll never know) Third, the "SKS" jive. I have no idea because right out of the gate another officer did properly identify the general type of firearm that was seized.

Here is an example of an officer misidentifying not just the weapon in question but failing to take the most basic safe handling procedure that anyone - not just LEO's - is expected to perform in handling a firearm.

The "Mauser" jive is only an earlier example of LEO dumb-ass weapon misidentification.
 
If you read the posts I was responding to (relevant context) they claim that blood spatter can’t travel faster than the incoming projectile. Well, consider those claims disproven.

I do not claim that the back spatter seen in the Z-film is traveling four times faster than the incoming bullet, but I do claim that it is traveling extremely fast and begin to do so aproximately 0.000400 seconds after the bullet hit the head.

Ergo. The visible back spatter seen in Z313 is instant and not a delayed effect from a bullet from the back hitting the head in Z312.

Which jury are you asserting has ruled in your favor?
 
Provide the links and I address, no worries.



Warren Commission Exhibit 390 demonstrates Canadian blood spatter analyst, Michael J. Sweet (1954-2006) published research regarding the velocity of blood projected from forceful impact. Utilizing human blood, Sweet’s research documented blood leaving the point of the impact travelled 3.59 times faster than the velocity of the impacting object (Sweet, 1993).

~ Fiester, Sherry P, 2012.​


No, just courtesy.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12303492&postcount=3581

To paraphrase and old and terribly missed old timer, "If you want to tell stories you'd better be sure who you're telling them to."

Your cited source is very specific as to what type of impacts he was describing in his research, and it for damn sure wasn't rifle velocity projectiles:

"Velocity Measurements of Projected Bloodstains from a Medium Velocity
Impact Source,"
M.J. Sweet

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00085030.1993.10757463

A procedure is described for measuring the velocity of blood spatter generated by a Medium Velocity Impact (1.5–7.5 m/sec.). The blood spatter was created by allowing a steel cylinder to fall free through a hollow pipe into a pool of blood. As the cylinder exited the lower end of the pipe it passed through an infrared beam which triggered two strobe lights set to fire at preselected intervals. As the blood left the impact site, a camera recorded a double image from the two strobes. A 15 cm rule included in the photographs provided a scale for measuring the distance between images.

The top velocity of impact is his research is 24.60 feet per second. Just over 1% of the muzzle velocity of the Carcano 6.5 round.

Maybe whatever filter you run this stuff through is flawed, or you just throw stuff out there that in your limited scope of experience in the subject matter sounds good but this nonsense is a very poor showing. If you don't understand the difference between 2,400 feet per second and 24.6 feet per second it's time to find another hobby.
 
It is not the ”amount” I’m talking about, it’s the instant effect of back spatter.

Rubbish

Instead of questioning me and my skills in this and that, explain what you are complaining about.

I will question your skills any time I like, especially when the content of your posts shows you are lacking in the areas you profess to understand

The gel for mimic human tissueand soap for blood/fluids.

Oh dear. You really don't know anything about terminal ballistics do you.... see why I question you about your knowledge and skills?

Ballistics Gelatin is used to mimic human tissue response to ballistic projectile impact, especuilly with regards to temporary cavity formations and collapse.

Ballistics Soap is used for the same reason as the former above, but because the it is less flexible, the cavity is permanent; it allows the tester to see the moment of maximum cavity expansion. The test block is often cut lengthwise through the cavity after a test to allow the tester to take accurate measurements

Do you see any soap in the gif?

No, and nor would I.

I wrote this earlier.
First the head stops, in an instance. Second, the head changes direction/accelerates. Third, the head is traveling. Fourth, the head stops and comes to rest. All this is happening in between Z312 and Z321.​

Still unclear?

Oh, its perfectly clear what you mean, you're just plain wrong, that's all.

what caused the violent thrust back and to the left?

A combination of decerebrate reflex and what was effectively a stick of explosive detonating on the right front side of JFK's head

1. Alvarez jet recoil is proven a fraud.

Cite the source for your bare assertion that Alvarez was a fraud (real sources please, not pretend ones run by CT nutcases)

2. Decerebrate reflexes are way to slow and do not explain the sum of JFK’s movement anyway.

Wrong. I have shown you that is you your fabrication. Decerebrate reflexes can be instantaneous, and often are. Ask a neurologist.

3. The limo was decelerating during the relevant time sequence, so the force was opposite the backward headsnap.

Cite the source for your bare assertion (real sources please, not pretend ones run by CT nutcases)

So, if ”simple observation” is enough, why did the authorities surpress the info in the Z-film showing JFK’s head violently being thrown back and to the left when hit by a bullet?

If everyone can see that it corroborates a bullet from behind = the official story?

Explain.

Authorities did not suppress the "back and to the left".

What authoriries did suppress was the graphic nature if the image of JFK's brain exploding out of the side of this head. This was done in deference to the family.
 
You missed the ”in between” here.

In between Z312 and Z321. Head stops in Z313.

So you are excluding Z312?

Your claim "All this is happening in between Z312 and Z321" is not inclusive, but exclusive, and excludes Z312 and Z321?

You are purposely excluding the frame before the impact... which is absolutely the wrong way to do this. Consult any physicist.

And if you mean from 313, then what caused the head to move forward from Z312 to Z313 if not a bullet from behind (the same bullet that fragments thereof were found in the limo, and the same bullet that caused the damage seen at autopsy)?

Hank
 
Maybe whatever filter you run this stuff through is flawed, or you just throw stuff out there that in your limited scope of experience in the subject matter sounds good...

There's another alternative. He hasn't realized yet his sources are lying to him. That is what converted me from CT to Warrenite.

Back in my youth, I would read Mark Lane or Harold Weisberg or Sylvia Meagher or Josiah Thompson, et.al., and accept their claims at face value. It was only when I got deeper into the subject - and realized in certain instances they were contradicting each other - that I figured the only way to know who was right was to dig into the first hand testimony myself.

It was only then that I saw the true problem.

They were all taking quotes out of context and twisting stuff to make it appear to be a conspiracy. Of course, because they each twisted it a little differently, they didn't agree with each other.

Now, I could have just shrugged those discrepancies between conspiracy authors off - that's what a lot of CTs do, after all - but I truly wanted a solution to the case. And that's why I purchased a lightly used set of the WC 26 volumes for $2500 ((from a place called the Presidents Box Bookshop back when that $2500 was real money) and started reading. I also purchased a set of the HSCA volumes at the same time (the GPO still had some).

I read through both at least twice. By the time I finished I was a CT no longer. I had seen what was behind the CT curtain.

This is the problem a lot of JFK CT newbies face. They have no idea how long some of these claims have been disproven, and they start reading either the old standards or the CT websites repeating the old standards and they think they are on to something here. And then they repeat the old dis-proven claims about the Mauser or about Oswald in the doorway or about the bullet being planted at Parkland and you just have to sigh and think, "oh god, another newbie!"

Hank
 
Does it now?

Warren Commission Exhibit 390 demonstrates Canadian blood spatter analyst, Michael J. Sweet (1954-2006) published research regarding the velocity of blood projected from forceful impact. Utilizing human blood, Sweet’s research documented blood leaving the point of the impact travelled 3.59 times faster than the velocity of the impacting object (Sweet, 1993).

~ Fiester, Sherry P, 2012.​

Please provide a link to the WC report so that we all may read the passage and determine if this velocity is in context.
 
As usual with CTs, you have selectively quoted only the part of the report you THINK supports your case, in this case, you have only quoted part of the abstract. I'll bet you haven't even read the actual report.

Now, lets quote the WHOLE section of the abstract, with all the information you wilfully and dishonestly cut out because it refuted your claim.

"A steel cylinder was allowed to fall freely though a hollow pipe into a pool of blood, thus creating the spatter. An infrared beam at the exit of the pipe activated two strobe lights set to fire at preselected intervals as the cylinder passed through it. The separate strobes provided a double image which was captured on film as the blood left the impact site. The distance between the two images was then measured. The photographs included a 15-centimeter rule which provided a scale for making the measurement. Both human and ovine blood were tested with no significant difference in results. Tests showed that the blood from the point of impact traveled at 5.57 m/sec., 3.59 times faster than the velocity of the impacting object. 6 figures, 2 tables"

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=147268

So the exit velocity in that test was 5.57 m/sec from an impact velocity of 1.55 m/s

Did it occur to you, in even the slightest degree, to think through the implications of what you posted, or were you in such a hurry to score internet points that you forgot to really think about it?

If you were to apply the little bit of knowledge you think you have gained, to a bullet impact of 2300 fps, then the splatter would need to be travelling at over 8257 fps... that is 7.5x the speed of sound... this is clearly impossible

If you refer it back to Z313, all the spatter would have disappeared from the frame by Z314... at 1/18th of a second frame rate, by Z314 all the spatter would be 459 feet away.

Thanks for the clarification of manifesto's claim. Clearly the blood is not moving at 7.5x the impact velocity.
I think you hit the nail on the head, manifesto is clearly trying to win points with this post.
 
Does it now?

Warren Commission Exhibit 390 demonstrates Canadian blood spatter analyst, Michael J. Sweet (1954-2006) published research regarding the velocity of blood projected from forceful impact. Utilizing human blood, Sweet’s research documented blood leaving the point of the impact travelled 3.59 times faster than the velocity of the impacting object (Sweet, 1993).

~ Fiester, Sherry P, 2012.​
Please provide a link to the WC report so that we all may read the passage and determine if this velocity is in context.

Sherry Fiester is simply BEGGING THE QUESTION!

Warren Commission Exhibit 390: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0505b.htm

I doubt highly if Manifesto even looked at what CE390 was comprised of. I knew something was fishy because blood spatter wasn't a recognized forensic discipline at the time of the assassination, so there would NOT be any blood spatter evidence within the Warren Commission's 26 volumes. And Sweet was 10 years old in 1964 when the Warren Commission published those 26 volumes.

Hank
 
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Does it now?

Warren Commission Exhibit 390 demonstrates Canadian blood spatter analyst, Michael J. Sweet (1954-2006) published research regarding the velocity of blood projected from forceful impact. Utilizing human blood, Sweet’s research documented blood leaving the point of the impact travelled 3.59 times faster than the velocity of the impacting object (Sweet, 1993).

~ Fiester, Sherry P, 2012.​

;), what caliber bullet was she using?

LOL.

I admit that you ;) CTs are taken in by everything you ;) read on idiotic conspiracy sites.
 
Sherry Fiester is simply BEGGING THE QUESTION!

Warren Commission Exhibit 390: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0505b.htm

I doubt highly if Manifesto even looked at what CE390 was comprised of. I knew something was fishy because blood spatter wasn't a recognized forensic discipline at the time of the assassination, so there would NOT be any blood spatter evidence within the Warren Commission's 26 volumes. And Sweet was 10 years old in 1964 when the Warren Commission published those 26 volumes.

Hank
So manifesto publishes a study that was not part of the WC, but a red herring.
You know all day long I have been rolling over this in relationship to JFK. The experiment had a pool of blood that was impacted by a cylinder. And the blood displaced by his cylinder. The pool has no bounds and therefore no restrictive force as the blood in the head has. Some questions remain, the cylinder was in freefall. Were tests made at higher than freefall? As smartcooky has asked the study concerned low velocity impacts. If no studies were made with high velocity impacts, then one can not make a correlation between high and low velocity blood splatter velocities. I'll give credit to manifesto for finding this study, completely not in the WC report. However the questions concerning high velocity impacts tends to invalidate manifesto's claim that blood splatter exits faster than the bullets velocity, perhaps close to but less than the bullets velocity, but not greater. Evidence taken not in context is a form of logical fallacy.
 
So manifesto publishes a study that was not part of the WC, but a red herring.
You know all day long I have been rolling over this in relationship to JFK. The experiment had a pool of blood that was impacted by a cylinder. And the blood displaced by his cylinder. The pool has no bounds and therefore no restrictive force as the blood in the head has. Some questions remain, the cylinder was in freefall. Were tests made at higher than freefall? As smartcooky has asked the study concerned low velocity impacts. If no studies were made with high velocity impacts, then one can not make a correlation between high and low velocity blood splatter velocities. I'll give credit to manifesto for finding this study, completely not in the WC report. However the questions concerning high velocity impacts tends to invalidate manifesto's claim that blood splatter exits faster than the bullets velocity, perhaps close to but less than the bullets velocity, but not greater. Evidence taken not in context is a form of logical fallacy.


Indeed, manifesto completely fails to understand the dynamics of the the situation with regards to the bullet impact and its relationship to the Zapruder film.

Abraham Zapruder's Bell and Howell movie camera has a frame rate of 18 frames per second; one frame every 56 milliseconds (ms) and a shutter speed of 1/40th of a second; 25ms i.e. the shutter was closed for 31 ms of every frame.

A Mannlicher-Carcano has a muzzle velocity of 2300 feet per second (fps). If we allow for the slowdown of the bullet velocity for the 265ft traveled, I estimate the muzzle velocity would have been around 2000 fps. At that velocity, the bullet would travel 50 feet in the 25 ms the shutter was open. This means that this camera was utterly incapable of capturing an image of the bullet. Even if the lens and film combination had sufficient resolution, which it doesn't, and even if the shutter was open when the bullet entered the field of view, it would appear as a line across the image from edge to edge.

However, a bullet slows down more when it passes through a human head (which is about 8 in from back to front) it would lose a small fraction of its velocity (as kinetic energy) on impact (<5%) and a slightly larger fraction (<10%) while passing through the head. So, lets double that to swing the numbers more in manifesto's favor

Now, even in this best case scenario, the bullet striking JFK's head at 2000 fps the instant the shutter that took Z312 opened, and slowed down by 30%, it still has a velocity of 1400 fps on exit. Again, taking the best case scenario, and using 1400 fps as our number, in the 31ms that the shutter was closed between Z312 and Z313, the bullet has traveled 43 feet. This means, by the time we see the splatter in Z313, the bullet has already gone..... the splatter is much, much, much slower than even the slowed down bullet.

Worse yet for manifesto, he's talking about a high velocity, soft-point bullet. A typical rifle to fire such a round, say an FAL or an L1A1 has a muzzle velocity of around 2700 fps, and fired from the knoll, that is a much shorter range, so the velocities will consequently be much higher.

The upshot of all this is that if, as manifesto wrongly tries to insist, the kill shot was from the front right, the bullet cannot be continuing to accelerate JFK's head backwards from Z314 onwards.
 
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So, what caused the violent thrust back and to the left?

1. Alvarez jet recoil is proven a fraud.

2. Decerebrate reflexes are way to slow and do not explain the sum of JFK’s movement anyway.

3. The limo was decelerating during the relevant time sequence, so the force was opposite the backward headsnap.

So, what caused it? Magic?

Decerebate posture, possibly including Opisthotonos.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003299.htm
 
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